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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2011 21:08:03 GMT -5
The apparent localization of bass is acceptable for movie playback. The bass should merge with the localized portion of the signal to give pseudo bass localization. If a train is passing from back to front at the right side of your H/T room, the total sound associated with that action should appear to come from the right side. However, localization of bass for music playback is another matter and can be distracting. I have not been able to localize bass at 80Hz and less. But to further prevent against any possibility of localization, in my current system, I use the 24dB X/O slope on the sub. And to further reduce such possibility, using the EQ on the subwoofer channel, I reduced all bands above 89 Hz by the maximum -10dB. Jamrock, you're confusing localization of subs with the spacial aspect of HT sound tracks. Localization refers to being able to locate the sound coming from the sub as opposed to the satellite or full range speaker that's crossed over to the sub. Spacial cues (panning), on the other hand, place the source of the sound in a 3D space. For example, consider a helicopter with a deep rotor thwap coming toward you from the left horizon, it crosses the center of your screen, getting louder and louder as approaches you, and then passes out of view on the right side of the screen and continues to fly away "behind" you and over your right shoulder. You should be able to locate the sound of that helicopter in 3D space as it makes its journey, however, you should not be able to tell which speaker/sub is contributing to the sounds that you are hearing. Not sure if I explained that correctly but hopefully you get what I'm trying to convey. Sorry Mahir, but I have to disagree with you on this. Say for the sake of hypothetical argument that the only sound from the helicopter was a low 30Hz rotor whwap. If you turned off the soundtrack then of course you would know the helicopter was going from left to right from the video cues if it was shown in the movie. Now turn off the video and all you hear is the 30Hz rotor thwap. You would now not be able to tell where that sound was coming from. You would have no way to tell that the helicopter was moving from left to right. The only effect you would hear is that the rotor thwap got lower and lower in volume as the helicopter was going off screen to the right (which you could not see). This is because all the audio cues to the location of the sound are from frequencies above 80Hz or so. The reason in the actual movie that you know the helicopter is moving from the left to the right (other than the visual cues) is that the fundamentals and harmonics of all of the sounds from the helicopter are reproduced as a sound pan above 80Hz from the L thru the C thru the R speaker and then the volume falls off as the sound approaches the far right. Any sounds you hear below 80Hz are still coming from the sub but the sub is not where you get the localization cues but rather from the main and surround speaker that are reproducing 80H and above sounds. The same is true when you are listening to a stand up bass in a jazz recording soundstage right. If it is playing a note below 80 Hz, the only reason you still know it is at the right soundstage is because of the above 80Hz harmonics it is also reproducing mainly thru the right speaker. Note: I use the 80Hz frequency here as an approximate general reference point for being able to locate the sound source. |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jul 10, 2011 21:20:40 GMT -5
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 10, 2011 21:41:25 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2011 21:44:30 GMT -5
I also disagree with Mr. Bauman since, presuming we are talking here about reasonably priced towers and combo's, I prefer the sound from the combo in many cases. The properly blended combo with a high quality sub will be more defined, extend lower and louder with less distortion. So, what is reasonably priced? For some, spending more than $500 for their whole theater is unreasonable while others are content to pay $20,000 a speaker for their HT. Of course, "reasonably priced" is a rather general term but I intended it to perhaps hit the average price range that a large majority of knowledgeable buyers like at the Emo Lounge would consider reasonable and in their price range. That eliminates the $500 and $20,000 tower buyers. Also the $20,000 towers would be usually quite superior in being able to reproduce the 20-80Hz range than my reasonably priced towers. So to make a wide generalization I would say I'm talking about towers ranging in the $750-$2000 each (I could have said $500-$2500 each or $1000-$3000 each but I think you get the general point). I am only guessing that this might include somewhere in the 50-75% of most of our members that own a two channel system. I hope you get the idea here. I'm not talking about the low end towers at Best Buy or the $10,000 towers or higher at the audio boutiques. I might be able to put together a 2.1 combo system that was the equal or superior to the $10,000-$20,000 tower pair but it might be a much more difficult challenge than competing against let's say a $3,000 tower pair. For example I'll put up two each Emotiva ERM-6.2's and two each Rythmik F15HP black oak grain finish with H600PEQ2 amplifier, $2896 that will be superior to many dynamic $3000 tower pairs (remember I like music with lots of low bass especially if I later expand this to a 5 channel system). That is presuming one likes a very flat 100-10,000Hz range without exaggerated upper bass/mids or edgy highs with excellent dispersion. There are a lot of qualifications here but I don't like many of the panel speakers that have a narrow sweet spot or make Bob Dylan sound like a 6 foot wide fat ass. There is not one $3000 tower pair that would come even close to the bass SQ of my example just above. |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jul 10, 2011 22:40:15 GMT -5
I might be able to put together a 2.1 combo system that was the equal or superior to the $10,000-$20,000 tower pair but it might be a much more difficult challenge than competing against let's say a $3,000 tower pair. For example I'll put up two each Emotiva ERM-6.2's and two each Rythmik F15HP black oak grain finish with H600PEQ2 amplifier, $2896 that will be superior to many dynamic $3000 tower pairs (remember I like music with lots of low bass especially if I later expand this to a 5 channel system). That is presuming one likes a very flat 100-10,000Hz range without exaggerated upper bass/mids or edgy highs with excellent dispersion. There are a lot of qualifications here but I don't like many of the panel speakers that have a narrow sweet spot or make Bob Dylan sound like a 6 foot wide fat ass. There is not one $3000 tower pair that would come even close to the bass SQ of my example just above. Of course, I like bass as much as the next guy. My ideal sound is shaped from the old tube GE solid wood component/cabinets that my Dad and Grandpa had from the 60's. I'm sure what I have now surpasses both of those (my Dad even said so) but without one of those units to direct compare to I can't be sure (my memories patina with age). That said, someone who prefers a lot of bass and listens to bass in an amplified manner (even double bass/stand up bass is piped into a mixing board and modified to fit a desired "sound") will be able, with your 2.1 set up, to dial in as much or as little bass as they prefer without changing their EQs or tone controls. So, someone who has a tower set up would not necessarily be able to do so. Therefore, for someone who likes it bassy a 2.1 set up would be both ideal and economical. However, this is not being true to the recorded music on the media being played. So maybe a better way to phrase my question from the other day would be how true to the media source are we wanting to get or are we just wanting to please our ears? Of course there is no wrong answer! ;D But it would determine the criteria that we're holding the discussion to (so far we've talked about movies/music, economics and a host of other things). |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jul 10, 2011 22:45:31 GMT -5
Man, I remember when "Doc" on my wing of Gulick Hall would see how far across the Quad he could blare his CVs! He had some of the nicest pair you could get back in the day (way out of my price range and my memory dumped the model number a long, long time ago). They were loud, bassy and totally sucked playing anything that wasn't loud and bassy. Flabby, loose, no control and artificial but they played Rock/Metal like nobody's business! |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jul 10, 2011 22:52:52 GMT -5
Induction Dynamics has a speaker line that, IMO, comes very close to being a true one box solution. Their model ID1.18 reminded me of another little known company Legacy audio.  ID1.18  Legacy Helix But the Legacy's are far from affordable!  They also have the ID1.15  And the ID1  I'm sure these are a bit less expensive. I'm not sure what Legacy cost but I'm sure that the ID series is very up there as well. I had a chance to listen to these about 6 years ago when buying my Phase Tech PC-sub. They rocked the house but were as nimble and exact as any other speaker I had heard up to that point. The ID1.18 is one stinking huge mother of a speaker! |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jul 10, 2011 23:00:38 GMT -5
My setup is used for DVD-A and SACD, as well as two channel and Movies. My bookshelves are rated at 45 Hz - 20 kHz, so I should be well withing their range with a 60Hz cross over. My bookshelves have 8" Woofers, and really are very large for bookshelves, 28 lbs each. This is what I have four of:  Pictures of what I'm using (these are the PC3.5s which are updated versions of my PC-3 speakers)  Mine are black, 6 ohm instead of 4 ohm and boxier. They've changed little over the years. Thankfully they've gone away from the felt they used to put over their flat piston drivers and the Uni-cel foam around the mid range/tweeter combo. These (and mine) are rated down to 36 Hz but I have mine crossed at 55 Hz (sub volume about 3/4 and UMC-1 set at -6.5 db). The mid-bass on these puppies just slams! It can feel like you just got hit in the chest with a racket ball. I use the sub to make it feel like a medicine ball. ;D |
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Post by roadrunner on Jul 11, 2011 0:48:01 GMT -5
Talking about these big driver speakers reminds me of two of the speakers I have owned during my years in this hobby. The ALTEC LANSING VOICE OF THE THEATER and the KLIPSCH CORNER HORN. Talk about big, efficient speakers that could blow the doors down using a 6 Watt amp. These have to be two of the most renowned loudspeakers ever made. They are still in production by both Altec and Klipsch. What an amazing run.
These speakers are so large that not many residential HT can accommodate them. The VOTT is 30 x 24 x 52 inches and weighs in at about 200 pounds per speaker. Can you imagine carrying these down your basement stairs to put in your HT? ;D I have very fond memories of both these vintage speakers; and their sheer size is the major reason I don't still own them.
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Post by Wideawake on Jul 11, 2011 7:52:05 GMT -5
Chuckie, I was merely attempting to make a distinction between localization and spacial panning. If you think I could have used a better example than I did then please feel free to illustrate the point better. I'm not seeing a divergence of thought in what you've posted so I'm not sure how to respond to you.  |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jul 11, 2011 9:14:34 GMT -5
Pictures of what I'm using (these are the PC3.5s which are updated versions of my PC-3 speakers) Mine are black, 6 ohm instead of 4 ohm and boxier. They've changed little over the years. Thankfully they've gone away from the felt they used to put over their flat piston drivers and the Uni-cel foam around the mid range/tweeter combo. These (and mine) are rated down to 36 Hz but I have mine crossed at 55 Hz (sub volume about 3/4 and UMC-1 set at -6.5 db). The mid-bass on these puppies just slams! It can feel like you just got hit in the chest with a racket ball. I use the sub to make it feel like a medicine ball. ;D Are these designed to be horizontal and placed close to a wall or in a cabinet for HT use? So for HT, you would essentially have three center channel like speakers up front? (without the horizontal lobbing issues?) |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jul 11, 2011 9:49:17 GMT -5
The center area with the mid and tweeter can rotate 360 degrees; so I have my center as you see it and my L/R are vertical. They are ported (rear). My L/R are are stands and, roughly, a foot away from the wall.
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 11, 2011 10:45:49 GMT -5
Back in high school when we'd go listen to speakers at the stereo store the Cerwin Vegas were always impressive. They always stood out. My friend bought a pair and after he hooked them up in his room, they sounded pretty lousy. Unless you were totally blasting them at outrageous volumes, they pretty much sucked. ;D
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 11, 2011 10:49:16 GMT -5
Here's the bottom line to the OP's question. It depends.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2011 11:55:00 GMT -5
Chuckie, I was merely attempting to make a distinction between localization and spacial panning. If you think I could have used a better example than I did then please feel free to illustrate the point better. I'm not seeing a divergence of thought in what you've posted so I'm not sure how to respond to you. I'm sorry, I guess I didn't read your post very carefully and misunderstood your spacial panning comments. ;D |
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Post by NorthStar on Jul 11, 2011 14:10:57 GMT -5
I feel to get drunk! ;D
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Post by Porscheguy on Jul 11, 2011 14:22:06 GMT -5
These make pretty decent SDPL. This is the left front channel of my HT system... :-)  |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jul 11, 2011 14:22:18 GMT -5
The center area with the mid and tweeter can rotate 360 degrees; so I have my center as you see it and my L/R are vertical. They are ported (rear). My L/R are are stands and, roughly, a foot away from the wall. What a slick design! How does it perform as a center channel vs L/R? |
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Post by ÈlTwo on Jul 11, 2011 15:57:08 GMT -5
My setup is used for DVD-A and SACD, as well as two channel and Movies. My bookshelves are rated at 45 Hz - 20 kHz, so I should be well withing their range with a 60Hz cross over. My bookshelves have 8" Woofers, and really are very large for bookshelves, 28 lbs each. This is what I have four of: These are discontinued. Have you done a writeup on them? They appear to have been replaced by the L820.  The L820s more closely approximate the S36IIs, with both having 6" woofers, but the 820s are 4-way speakers. They are also described, by JBL, as satellites, with a range starting at 55Hz. I don't remember doing a writeup on them.  |
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jul 11, 2011 18:54:56 GMT -5
With the advent of the digital age, engineers started to shrink products. Minaturization without sacrficing performance became the motto. The next frontier will be more powerful, smaller and efficient digital power amplifiers.
This concept hit the area of speakers with a vengeance. A home theater had to be accommodated in the family room or den. It is difficult to see 7 x ID1.18 fitting in an average family room. The bookshelf/sub combo replaced the huge full range tower. The idea was to get enough output to full the room comfortably, not over power the room. It is only of recent that newer homes and those of the very rich are designed with a dedicated H/T room. And even then, most are not designed to accommodate full range sopeakers.
There are the diehards who swear by their towers. And rather than replacing them, they incorporate their towers into their H/Ts, or have 2 separate rigs for H/T/surround music and 2.0 playback. I applaud that. You have a right to be happy.
However, the question is not really what is your preference, full range or bookshelf/subwoofer combo? We are all entitled to our preferences! It is whether or not your preference can demonstrably out perform the alternative. I still hold that the BS/SW combo holds the edge. Take the bass drivers in the 1D1.18 and optimized them in their own box. Then take the remaining midrange drivers & tweeters and optimize them in their own enclosure. Then tune them to play together. I am pretty sure that the latter would 'decisively' out perform the former with no objective, discernable, cohesive, difference. ;D
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;D
