Bookshelf & Sub v. Towers.

[stiehl11]

And you've seen the ID1.18? From what I've been told (I did not take a power drill to the ones that I looked at in 2005 to start a tear down on them) the cabinets are like 3 individual boxes, stacked. When I get my first pair I'll see if I can snap some pics with the drivers removed sometime.

Having 7 of these monsters makes as much sense as having 7x800 Diamond series B&Ws. If you've got enough room to need 7 of either speaker then you've got room to house them. And, with the 1.18 and the way they handle the signals if you go for 7.2 sound then the L/R 1.18s will handle your .2. You can then use smaller speakers (i.e. without dual 18" cones) to run your other 5 channels.

But, you are completely correct in that it all comes down to what we like. As you see in my signature I'm using a sub to enhance my monitor's low end performance. It's because I can't afford my first (or second) pair of ID1.18s (yet). Will they beat my Phase Techs (with either my PC-sub or SVS)? Yep. Will they cost more? Yep. Have I had a $20,000/pair super-speaker-fap-fest between B&W, MBL, ID and whatever, nope. But, if I do, I'll let you know the winner.

My final word on this (I hope) is that crappy sat/sub sets won't beat a good tower. A crappy tower won't beat a good sat/sub set. A good sat/sub set is more economical than a good tower of comparable ability. A sat/sub set can artificially boost the bass beyond what is on the media being played where an unamped tower will not. A well calibrated sat/sub set is hard to find in the wild.

[jamrock]

You keep making reference to sub/sat system. While I believe that you have the right system in mind, I feel the need to make a differentiation to make sure that we are on the same page. A sub/sat system is not the same as a bookshelf/sub combo. A sub/sat system are those like the Bose Acoustimass, etc. that have a dedicated "bass module" They have these little jewel speakers with single 2-1/2" or so drivers that is said to 'disappear in the room' and a so calkled hideaway 'bass' module, which actually produces no bass at all.

A bookshelf speaker is much different. They are at least 2-way speakers with sometimes multiple midrange drivers and a tweeter. As I have indicated before, they are "Full range speakers minus the bass section"

"A sat/sub set can artificially boost the bass beyond what is on the media being played where an unamped tower will not"


A full range speaker can do this too if your pre/amp has those bass & treble buttons. But that is a matter of taste. However, the flexibility and precision that the BS/SW combo offers are beyond the ability of the FRT.


"And you've seen the ID1.18? ..........The cabinets are like 3 individual boxes, stacked"


But you can't defeat physics. You either need enclosure volume or amplifier power to get the desired bass output. Either of these in the FRT 'might' equal the BS/SW combo, but not surpass it. Let me know if the volume of the bass enclosure in the ID1.18 is equivalent to the same of a well made subwoofer using the same driver(s), or using the same amplifier power.

Oh, by the way, it was for the reason of maintaining sales (profit margins) of full range towers that some manufacturers started to include an active subwoofer in their towers so that those buyers can feel that they can compete wirth the BS/SW combo. O'k. I have no proof, but it definitely seems that way though. ;D ;D

[Pauly]

I could be wrong jamrock, but I've always known sat/sub and bookshelf/sub to be the same. I've never called the Bose cubes "sats". Hopefully I haven't been wrong all these years lol. That's embarrassing lol.

[jamrock]

Jul 12, 2011 17:09:04 GMT -5 Pauly said:

I could be wrong jamrock, but I've always known sat/sub and bookshelf/sub to be the same. I've never called the Bose cubes "sats". Hopefully I haven't been wrong all these years lol. That's embarrassing lol.

"SAT" is an abbreviation for SATELLITE. That is not, and should not be confused with a bookshelf speaker. For instance, Emotiva does not make a sub/sat system. But, they do make bookshelf speakers. ;D

[Pauly]

I knew what the abbreviation is for, but I just figured you could call bookshelf speakers "sats" as well, just because of their small size. Well, some of them are rather small. Anyway, I'm stupid lol. Back on topic.

[DYohn]

"Sub/Sat" generally means a system that was designed to work together, but it is effectively the same thing as using any sub with any speakers. Semantics.

[Pauly]

Well, that makes me feel a little better. Thanks for the pick me up, David lol.

[BillBauman]

Jul 12, 2011 17:47:55 GMT -5 DYohn said:

"Sub/Sat" generally means a system that was designed to work together, but it is effectively the same thing as using any sub with any speakers. Semantics.

I disagree. Then again, we can all disagree since it's not like there's a scientific definition out there (maybe?). Sub/Sat to my constituents and myself falls in line with jamrock's explanation. Satellites are only ever in reference to tiny-ish, cube speakers, not bookshelves. I have never heard anyone refer to a pair of bookshelf speakers, or a set of 5 of them, as the "sats" in any system, matched or not. "Surrounds", "Monitors", "Small Mains", and others, yes, but never "Sats" or "Satellites".

[Pauly]

Doh!

[jamrock]

Please forgive me on this:

Full Range Tower ............................Bass, Midrange & Tweeter in the same enclosure.
Bookshelf/Sub combo .....................Separate bass enxclosure. Mid & tweeter same enclosure.
Sub/Sat system...............................Mid & tweeter in separate encls. No real bass enclosure.
HTIB ............................................... Miscarriage - TBD. ;D

[BillBauman]

jamrock: Where did you get those definitions?

DYohn: Does that line up with your thinking?

I would really like to know if there is an industry agree/applied standard of the terminology. I'd rather we all be talking about the same thing at the same time, as well.

[jamrock]

Jul 12, 2011 17:47:55 GMT -5 DYohn said:

"Sub/Sat" generally means a system that was designed to work together, but it is effectively the same thing as using any sub with any speakers. Semantics.

You are kidding, aren't you? Are the Emotiva ERM 6.2, 6.3 the same as the Bose Acoustimass system? If there is a difference, How would you categorize them?

[DYohn]

A "sub/sat" system can be any speaker system that is designed to work together as a three-piece system. It might be Bose cubes, it might be bookshelf speakers, hell it could be near full-range floor standers. It doesn't matter, it's all semantics. If the system is a purpose-designed as a 3-piece it is a "sub/Sat" system. It has nothing to do with the FR or size of the satellites, it has to do with their intended use.

if you put it together yourself, then it's a system you put together yourself and you can certainly use any speakers you like to create your own "sub/sat" system.

How would I categorise the Bose "Acoustimass" system? You mean besides a POS? They are certainly a 3 or 5 or 7 or 9 piece "sub/sat" system. But so is the M&K LCR950, and those satellites are nearly full-range bookshelf speakers. I don't understand why this is a difficult concept.

[NorthStar]

Jul 12, 2011 17:50:38 GMT -5 BillBauman said:

Jul 12, 2011 17:47:55 GMT -5 DYohn said:

"Sub/Sat" generally means a system that was designed to work together, but it is effectively the same thing as using any sub with any speakers. Semantics.

I disagree. Then again, we can all disagree since it's not like there's a scientific definition out there (maybe?). Sub/Sat to my constituents and myself falls in line with jamrock's explanation. Satellites are only ever in reference to tiny-ish, cube speakers, not bookshelves. I have never heard anyone refer to a pair of bookshelf speakers, or a set of 5 of them, as the "sats" in any system, matched or not. "Surrounds", "Monitors", "Small Mains", and others, yes, but never "Sats" or "Satellites".

In the year 1990 or so, you would be right.

But nowadays a Satellite speaker could even be a Full Range Tower.
A Satellite now corresponds to a speaker that is not a Subwoofer.
It is 'satelliting' in the system; meaning it usually takes care of the higher frequencies above 80 Hz or so.
In a 7.1-channel system for example, you have a Sub or more and seven Satellite speakers. Bookshelf or Full Range.

The little Bose speakers are called "Cubes". They're for the 'Picasso' type of people; more oriented in decor than real audio.

It's not real important anyway as those are just words, but for certain people they have their 'spots'.

Me I'm easy, a 'Satellite' is about a million things. Like a dish for example.

[jamrock]

Jul 12, 2011 18:00:02 GMT -5 BillBauman said:

jamrock: Where did you get those definitions?

DYohn: Does that line up with your thinking?

I would really like to know if there is an industry agree/applied standard of the terminology. I'd rather we all be talking about the same thing at the same time, as well.

I know enough to be extremely dangerous. ;D

To me, it is just a matter of how I have always known these different speakers all along. DYohn knows a lot more about speakers than I will. But, I'm surprised at his resaponse. I think that the haboob got him!

[DYohn]

Jul 12, 2011 18:21:53 GMT -5 jamrock said:

DYohn knows a lot more about speakers than I will. But, I'm surprised at his resaponse. I think that the haboob got him!

See my last reply.

[stiehl11]

Sorry, my bad on the sub/sat... er, sub/<insert whatever>. Considering about half of his post was to semantics I feel I'm doing better. I do understand the confusion in my terminology to those unable to get the gist of my post. I'll make sure I type slower to make sure everyone stays together from now on.

Now, I could be mistaken but somewhere in this thread someone made a reference to Bob Carver marketing a sub in a "small" box against the dogma of the day only to have everyone copy it? So, I'm sure that whatever volume I give for the ID1.18 it will not be enough to satisfy... unless Bob Carver did it; then it's a revolution. BTW, it's about 15 cubic feet of available enclosure (compared to about 5 for an SVS PB13 and 4 for a Rythmik F15); how it's divided and braced and packed I don't know. The weight of these dainty little beauties is 240 lbs. a piece.

After you audition a pair of the ID1.18s with your gear let me know how they compare to a SW/BS system. Until then, you're talking out your <whatever>... no mights about it.

And... yes, you can distort your sound unnaturally by playing with the EQ/Tone controls. However, with 800 to 1,000 watts dedicated to the frequencies below 55 Hz you can amplify a mouse fart loud enough to blow out your windows. I'd like to see a set of EQ/Tone controls bend a curve to have an XPA-1 send 800 to 1,000 watts below 55 Hz and whatever minimum watts left to everything else. ;D

***I know that 1,000 watts of mouse fart, sub 55 Hz, will not blow out your windows so please save your fingers in typing something that says that.***

[annjones13]

My first "somewhat" good speakers were a pair of Snell K2 bookshelf speakers paired with an Infinity powered sub. Since they were better quality than any thing I had previously owned, I thought they were fabulous. Now I run Klipsh RF-3 towers and also a center and surronds. I felt the bookshelves did music better than my current towers. But for movies give me the towers.

There is a pair of NHT 3.3 towers for sale on Audiogon. review & pics here www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1293nht/

IF I had the $1.3K he is asking I would own them. I don't think they could do movies with out a sub and center, but I would love to hear them try.
My room is 12' wide and 25' deep X 9' high. I could make 31 inch deep speakers work. There is a pair of NHT 2.9's available for about the same money, only 21 inches deep and about 80/90% of the same sound.
I think the room plays a very large part in what speakers will work best.
This is a facinating thread to read!

Ann

[jamrock]

You are starting to sound angry my friend. No need to get there. Am I to understand that if someone disagrees with you, the next step is to resort to redicule & insult. What do you mean by the statement below?

After you audition a pair of the ID1.18s with your gear let me know how they compare to a SW/BS system. Until then, you're talking out your <whatever>... no mights about it.

I will never audition a pair of ID1.18 because I have absolutely no interest in full range speakers anymore. My theater was not built to accommodate them. And, I think that I've found a better alternative in a BS/SW combo. To be honest, I don't consider so call full range speakers with active subwoofers as truly full range. They are hybrids. In certain audiophile circles, they are tagged as gimmicks. The Emotiva ERM 8.3 and the Aperion Verus Grand are true full range speakers. However, I see no need to continue lest I anger you more. Peace!

[stiehl11]

You haven't angered me... sorry if I was a bit too snarky.

The ID1.18s can be amplified or left to have a full signal. There's a toggle switch for that. For the simple reason that I stated somewhere in the thread that you can really change the dynamic of the sound by adding an amplifier to the sub ranges.

What I meant by the statement was that what might and might not be is best served by listening to them. At this time in my life I have no interest in them. I'm just using them as an example of a full range (not hybrid, but can be amped if you so choose) speaker. I also like putting things out there other than the usual speaker du jour that everyone touts. I've tried to come up with 10 different speaker manufacturers of the people on this forum but I peter out somewhere around 8 or 9. With that much parity I can see where it would be easy to paint with broad brushes.

Again, go to (what I thought was) my final post in the thread for my (final) thoughts. I have an amped sub with my system and for price/performance it's the best that I can afford/heard. I'm always open to other products and if you search my posts back in January you'll find that I started asking about a better sub than the one that I currently have in *stasis*. When I find a speaker that's in my price range better than the Phase Techs they'll be gone as well. Maybe that will be a pair of ID1.18s?