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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2011 9:19:28 GMT -5
Jamrock, IMO you have it correct. That is what I've been preaching for years including here. The sub should normally be crossed over between 70-80Hz for the mains depending on the speakers and the individuals ability to localize the sub. 80Hz and below is the generally accepted as the point at which folks cannot identify the location of the sub. Thus one sub can in some cases do the job of the tower speakers while being able to be moved around the room for the best performance. As we know more than one sub can smooth out the bass performance throughout the room. Matching a very high quality sub with a very high quality bookshelf speakers when properly blended can produce excellent sound. The blending process is critical and one of the reasons many folks get poor results. Lots of them make the mistake of setting the L&R as large (full range). A must with this type of system is a high quality bookshelf speaker that is -3dB at 80Hz or lower (actual not specified). The sub I agree should be -3dB at or below 20Hz if possible for best performance with movies and some music. Specifically the bookshelf speaker should be of high power handling ability. This is one factor where many speaker brands disappoint. As their speakers get smaller from the tower models to the bookshelf models the power handling suffers. Emotiva is one brand that has excellent power handling in their bookshelf speakers such as the ERM-6.2. Having a sub handle 80-70Hz and down enables one to move the sub around the room to get the best low bass response. This is not possible with the tower since it needs to be placed where the upper bass/mids/highs sound the best. This position is most times not the same place where the tower performs best in the 80Hz and lower range. Many folks like the bass heavy sound from running the towers at full range or crossing them over too low at their -3dB point. Those that prefer flat and detailed bass will find this way too boomy. Some for example will cross over their tower to the sub at 40Hz because the tower is specified at -3dB's at 40Hz or 35Hz. This is a big mistake IMO! A high quality sub will perform much more effectively in the 40-80Hz range. This is exactly what it is designed for. Many tower drivers are on their last legs below 80Hz. A top sub should be quite flat up to about 100Hz or higher, -3dB. I see so many people buy what they think are great towers. They go down to 40Hz or so at -3dB's so they don't think they need a sub for music. This doesn't mean that tower is producing the same low distortion at 50Hz as it is at 250Hz. Then they take the few pennies they have left over a buy a sub-standard sub (pun intended). Buying a Emotiva ERT-8.3 is just fine as long as you still have the bucks to buy a great sub (I mean a great sub). Just don't cross it over at 40-50Hz because the specs show 45Hz at -3dB's. Well, why even buy the 8.3 then if the Nut says cross it over at 70-80Hz. The 8.3 will still have incredible slam from 70Hz and on up which few bookshelf speakers can match. If you have a few less bucks then for a great system get the 6.2 or 6.3 and match it with a great sub or two. Just don't get the 8.3 and match it with a $200-$400 sub. Wonderful post, exactly what I have been struggling to put into words. |
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Jul 10, 2011 9:36:18 GMT -5
The apparent localization of bass is acceptable for movie playback. The bass should merge with the localized portion of the signal to give pseudo bass localization. If a train is passing from back to front at the right side of your H/T room, the total sound associated with that action should appear to come from the right side. However, localization of bass for music playback is another matter and can be distracting. I have not been able to localize bass at 80Hz and less. But to further prevent against any possibility of localization, in my current system, I use the 24dB X/O slope on the sub. And to further reduce such possibility, using the EQ on the subwoofer channel, I reduced all bands above 89 Hz by the maximum -10dB. I agree, and with my setup I do not have an issue with music either, check out some Black Sabbath or The White Stripes for good music tracks with low(er) bass, you can hear the bass guitar/kick drums etc. in different locations on different tracks and indeed moving around on some. Folks should remember that the XO is on a slope and depending on the filter used, the drop off can start a lot higher than the actual XO point and the speaker can be outputting quite a bit below the XO point. Likewise, depending on the filter you can set a lower XO at e.g. 60Hz on a bookshelf and it may blend better and reduce any localisation effect. The key is to a) experiment and b) measure IMO. On the other stuff you are doing, what is your LFE (sub) XO set to on the UMC-1? Unless it is set low you could be losing a lot of LFE in the higher range and if you have it set low, on the UMC-1 it will pass anything above that to the L+R so you might have localisation of upper LFE to the front when it should be coming from all around you. Of course this assumes subs front and rear, with a single sub you are likely better to have (as you probably do) the LFE XO set to 24db/octave and 80Hz as at least the redirected upper LFE will appear evenly at the front spread left to right.  |
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Post by Wideawake on Jul 10, 2011 10:07:35 GMT -5
The apparent localization of bass is acceptable for movie playback. The bass should merge with the localized portion of the signal to give pseudo bass localization. If a train is passing from back to front at the right side of your H/T room, the total sound associated with that action should appear to come from the right side. However, localization of bass for music playback is another matter and can be distracting. I have not been able to localize bass at 80Hz and less. But to further prevent against any possibility of localization, in my current system, I use the 24dB X/O slope on the sub. And to further reduce such possibility, using the EQ on the subwoofer channel, I reduced all bands above 89 Hz by the maximum -10dB. Jamrock, you're confusing localization of subs with the spacial aspect of HT sound tracks. Localization refers to being able to locate the sound coming from the sub as opposed to the satellite or full range speaker that's crossed over to the sub. Spacial cues (panning), on the other hand, place the source of the sound in a 3D space. For example, consider a helicopter with a deep rotor thwap coming toward you from the left horizon, it crosses the center of your screen, getting louder and louder as approaches you, and then passes out of view on the right side of the screen and continues to fly away "behind" you and over your right shoulder. You should be able to locate the sound of that helicopter in 3D space as it makes its journey, however, you should not be able to tell which speaker/sub is contributing to the sounds that you are hearing. Not sure if I explained that correctly but hopefully you get what I'm trying to convey. |
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Post by Wideawake on Jul 10, 2011 10:42:34 GMT -5
A subwoofer can play at any level you want. And I noticed the deliberate use of the words 'artificial and unnatural' when you reference the sub sound/output. Not necessary. A properly calibrated sub/bookshelf combo sound no different from a full range tower. It is only that either the bookshelf section or the sub section can each output more decibels and sometimes cleaner & clearer than the 1 box solution because each section is individually optimized. You are not able to accomplish that in a 1 box wonder. In the BS/SW-C, each section can move that much more air. Secondly, there is no music genre that is better played back with a BS/SW combo or tower. The simple fact is that you have more flexibility with the BS/SW-C of tuning it on the fly to your taste. Hopefully, I'm understanding your post fully. Exactly! And the "new" definition of a sub as for only below 50Hz seems not to be held to by any sub manufacturer or consumer. To each their own. Even THX defines a sub as being for 80Hz and below, not 50Hz. A sub is a very specialized piece of audio gear, required to reproduce the lower 2 octaves of the audible audio spectrum. THX (or George Lucas, or whoever) probably conducted a survey and found that most speakers don't produce much output below 80Hz. Given that common denominator (among others), they set up a standard so that equipment manufacturers could strive for some sort of standardization. Just because THX set up this standard it does not mean that following the standard of crossing over at 80 Hz will always provide the best audio reproduction in all situations. The SQ in your situation depends upon your equipment (and room) and its capabilities. Subs can be moved around when crossed over low enough due to the non-localization of low frequencies. As the frequency increases we need a vertical distribution in frequency ranges since horizontal distributions mess up our spacial cues. That's one main reason to use vertical center channels where possible. All I'm saying here is that we should not take the THX standard of crossing over our subs at 80 Hz as gospel. |
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 10, 2011 11:03:58 GMT -5
Theoretically, yes, this is true. The problem is getting them tuned properly. Thanks for the link for the DSP Antimode eq. It seems like a great product, but it fails to cover one important (and difficult for me to get correct) setting. That is how loud the subwoofer is supposed to be. As I said before, I just cannot seem to get it right, and when I use YPAO (auto setup on my receiver) the bass seems to be too hot for music, and not loud enough for movies. Maybe I need to start a new thread here about subwoofwer tuning...not trying to thread jack you jamrock. I would LOVE to be able to perfect the "science" of properly tuning, calibrating, level setting, etc. of a sat/sub system as I believe you could ultimately get a much better sound for your money spent, IF everything was done properly.  You will need a calibrated mic, something like REW and an EQ system (like the MiniDSP) to do this right IMO. The result is well worth it. One nice thing about the bass system on the UMC-1 is that you can increase the LFE level separately from the crossed over bass - but I think I only have 1db added so you can certainly get it right/close without needing that. I've also got a +12db house curve running from 120Hz down to 14Hz which seem to really work well with the 80Hz/12db XO from the processor. Go ahead and start a thread and I will give you my opinions and help with using REW etc. if you like. Nemesis.ie, I would LOVE it if you would assist me in figuring out how to use REW.  I have actually brought this subject up in the past and someone provided me a link to read about REW. It was an overload of information, and wasn't really a step by step tutorial, IMO. What I would like (if you would) is a tutorial, of sorts, that takes "baby steps" through the process of properly using REW, and how to interpret the data it provides. For example: Step 1. Be usre you have version 1.23.456 of REW installed on your computer, because that is what I use. Step 2. Grab "X" hardware and attach "do this". For this piece of hardware I use "XYZ" product but a lot of people use "ZYX" and it works gret as well. Step 3. open REW and click on the "Y" icon... Step 4. etc.... Well, you get my point. Make is simple for us non-computer program writing guys.   I understand if doing something like this is too involving, and you would rather not have to "walk me though it".  I assure you, I am not completely computer illiterate, nor a total idiot, but for some reason, when I open up REW...my brain just shuts down.    Here is the link to the thread I started, if you would like to post instructions. emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=chat&action=display&thread=18785Thanks a BUNCH, and like I said, if this is too much work then I won't be upset if you don't have the time to go through all that. |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jul 10, 2011 11:46:18 GMT -5
Wow, what a lively discussion this has turned out! As we bandy our opinions about I definitely get a feel for everyone’s preference on this. So, without further ado let me jump back in… I noticed the deliberate use of the words 'artificial and unnatural' when you reference the sub sound/output. Not necessary. I did use the words “artificial” and “unnatural” intentionally but not for a degrading purpose. The purpose that I intended was to differentiate the sound produced naturally by an instrument and one produced by an amplified or synthesized source. And, when making this delineation, it is very necessary. It is not that one is better than the other or anything like that. A properly calibrated sub/bookshelf combo sound no different from a full range tower. As stated by others; talking about a properly calibrated sub and experiencing a properly calibrated sub are, often, not one in the same. This is not a dig at any one as we all owe it to ourselves and the money we spent on our hobby to be happy with our sound. Again, take your full bandwidth signal from your amp, cross it anyway/anyhow you’d like, send that signal to any sub you’d like bypassing it’s amp and that’s what it’s supposed to sound like. If, either in your mind’s eye/ear or in practical execution of this experiment, there is a difference then you do not have a properly calibrated system and are, in fact, making the sound unnatural. I have purposely left out EQ’ing the signal for this experiment for simplicity only. It is not to be implied that EQ’ing the system is not a necessary step in properly calibrating a system. Author’s note: I’ve wrote this paragraph a couple of times and I just know someone is going to start a dairy farm over it. It’s the best my hung over brain can put together this morning. It is only that either the bookshelf section or the sub section can each output more decibels and sometimes cleaner & clearer than the 1 box solution because each section is individually optimized. You are not able to accomplish that in a 1 box wonder. In the BS/SW-C, each section can move that much more air. I will agree that the majority of loudspeakers out there do not have the design to properly execute a sub 50 Hz solution in one box. Hell, looking on the net to find some of the speakers that others others have in their signature I’m surprised some of them can hit 150 Hz cleanly (what’s the saying about lies, damn lies and statistical analysis?). This is why I mentioned a company called Induction Dynamics. Just as none of the “heavy hitters” on the forum own/use/have heard of Phase Technology speakers (I think someone said they listened to a set over 20 years ago and didn’t like them; a lot has changed since then) I see no one talk about much less show interest in Induction Dynamics. It’s not surprising because neither Phase Tech or Induction Dynamics advertises much and they’re not in every hi-fi/Magnolia store across the nation or internationally (actually they’re in a grand total of 0 Magnolia stores). Induction Dynamics has a speaker line that, IMO, comes very close to being a true one box solution. A one box solution is not impossible but it’s not going to be attainable for $600 bucks a box. Therefore, a monitor/sub system is more economical than a true one box design, not necessarily better. Secondly, there is no music genre that is better played back with a BS/SW combo or tower. The simple fact is that you have more flexibility with the BS/SW-C of tuning it on the fly to your taste. Hopefully, I'm understanding your post fully. Finally (for this post, anyways) I don’t believe I said that a particular genre is better played back on one speaker solution or the other; just that one solution was unnecessary. This goes back to my need to delineate between amplified or synthesized and natural instrumentation. So very few instruments will actually play low enough to make use of a sub-woofer that it’s almost unnecessary if you listen exclusively to that type of music. Furthermore, though the instrument may resonate frequencies low enough to need a sub-woofer to be reproduced it will do so at such a low volume that you’d have to amplify the signal way, way higher than what the instrument can actually play. This is not a problem with, say, a bass guitar that can use a pick-up to capture the sound, send that signal to a processor where it can be manipulated using multitude of effects and processing to bring out (or put in) those sub-frequencies then amplified to infinity. Likewise, with amplified music (whether it’s through a pick-up or shoving a mic down the bell) they are usually recorded (in modern times) individually. By individually I mean each instrument “plugged-in” to a mixing/effects board. By way of comparison; when you listen to an orchestral recording there may be several microphones positioned around the group but each instrument is not individually recorded and processed. Therefore, the sub-frequencies of an unamplified instrument mentioned above often do not have the amplitude to make it to the microphone positioned several feet away (rather than right on the string or in the bell or drum cavity) to be recorded properly. If it’s on a recording at all it comes out as mud and actually distorts the sound rather than enhance it. A lot of times an orchestral recording has its low end “cut” to make a better recording. So, if it isn’t there to be reproduced what would the point be of having something to reproduce it? That is, if you have a one-box solution that can realistically play down to 80 or so Hz. |
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Post by stiehl11 on Jul 10, 2011 12:03:26 GMT -5
The apparent localization of bass is acceptable for movie playback. The bass should merge with the localized portion of the signal to give pseudo bass localization. If a train is passing from back to front at the right side of your H/T room, the total sound associated with that action should appear to come from the right side. However, localization of bass for music playback is another matter and can be distracting. I have not been able to localize bass at 80Hz and less. But to further prevent against any possibility of localization, in my current system, I use the 24dB X/O slope on the sub. And to further reduce such possibility, using the EQ on the subwoofer channel, I reduced all bands above 89 Hz by the maximum -10dB. Jamrock, you're confusing localization of subs with the spacial aspect of HT sound tracks. Localization refers to being able to locate the sound coming from the sub as opposed to the satellite or full range speaker that's crossed over to the sub. Spacial cues (panning), on the other hand, place the source of the sound in a 3D space. For example, consider a helicopter with a deep rotor thwap coming toward you from the left horizon, it crosses the center of your screen, getting louder and louder as approaches you, and then passes out of view on the right side of the screen and continues to fly away "behind" you and over your right shoulder. You should be able to locate the sound of that helicopter in 3D space as it makes its journey, however, you should not be able to tell which speaker/sub is contributing to the sounds that you are hearing. Not sure if I explained that correctly but hopefully you get what I'm trying to convey. I'm going to add a bit to this, if I may. Ideally your system should be set up so that as the "helicopter" moves/pans across the soundscape from left to right the sound of the copter should move through your L/C/R speakers, accordingly; thus allowing you to be able to tell where the object is within the soundscape. Only the low frequency effect should be in the sub(s). If the "hearing" sound is also in the speaker that should only have the "feeling" sound then localization of the low frequency becomes apparent. |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jul 10, 2011 12:14:09 GMT -5
I also disagree with Mr. Bauman since, presuming we are talking here about reasonably priced towers and combo's, I prefer the sound from the combo in many cases. The properly blended combo with a high quality sub will be more defined, extend lower and louder with less distortion. So, what is reasonably priced? For some, spending more than $500 for their whole theater is unreasonable while others are content to pay $20,000 a speaker for their HT. |
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Post by stiehl11 on Jul 10, 2011 12:39:54 GMT -5
A subwoofer can play at any level you want. And I noticed the deliberate use of the words 'artificial and unnatural' when you reference the sub sound/output. Not necessary. A properly calibrated sub/bookshelf combo sound no different from a full range tower. It is only that either the bookshelf section or the sub section can each output more decibels and sometimes cleaner & clearer than the 1 box solution because each section is individually optimized. You are not able to accomplish that in a 1 box wonder. In the BS/SW-C, each section can move that much more air. Secondly, there is no music genre that is better played back with a BS/SW combo or tower. The simple fact is that you have more flexibility with the BS/SW-C of tuning it on the fly to your taste. Hopefully, I'm understanding your post fully. Exactly! And the "new" definition of a sub as for only below 50Hz seems not to be held to by any sub manufacturer or consumer. To each their own. Even THX defines a sub as being for 80Hz and below, not 50Hz. I think that for HT the sub should be able to handle higher frequencies (above 50-80 Hz). For HT it's ok to quote THX or Fantasound or what ever the standard du jour is. However, for music I feel the sub should only be a bit player in a much larger picture. The higher you cross your sub the more you're making it a amplified speaker and not a device to enhance your sound. Because of the speakers out there that cannot go down to 50 Hz reliably there is a market for subs that can bridge that gap. So, between LFE tracks in HT needing to go higher than 50 Hz and smaller and cheaper speakers unable to go lower, sub manufacturers will continue to make subs that can expand to the higher realms of bass and the lower realms of sub bass... not because it's better. (YMMV) |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jul 10, 2011 12:48:44 GMT -5
For the discussion to have balance, when we compare full range towers against BS/SWC, we need to make comparison of like quality as possible. I also believe that as rudimentary as it may seem, a bookshelf speaker should be differentiated from a sub/sat system. For clairifcation, my understanding of what consitute a bookshelf speaker is "A full range speaker without the lower bass section (80dB and lower). Good examples of bookshelf speakers would be the Emotiova ERM 6.2, ERM 6.3 and Aperion Verus Grand bookshelf. I do not wish to offend anyone with this explanation, as I know that there are those here who know far more about the subject than I will ever know. However, I do see these mistaken equivalencies intermittently made in this wonderful discussion. Peace! Thanks for the clarification! My classifications are a bit different. My PC-1s, which I would consider for surround/satellite duty fit your definition as bookshelf speakers. My bookshelf speakers fit your definition of towers and the tower version of my speakers, well... ;D That said I don't think even the towers in the PC series would be able to play hip hop or rap without a good sub. |
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jul 10, 2011 13:43:11 GMT -5
Stiehl11 explains:
"I'm going to add a bit to this, if I may. Ideally your system should be set up so that as the "helicopter" moves/pans across the soundscape from left to right the sound of the copter should move through your L/C/R speakers, accordingly; thus allowing you to be able to tell where the object is within the soundscape. Only the low frequency effect should be in the sub(s). If the "hearing" sound is also in the speaker that should only have the "feeling" sound then localization of the low frequency becomes apparent"
The exact point I was trying to make about the "pseudo location of bass" in movie playback. The entire signal seem to follow the action. Thanx Steihl11. ;D
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jul 10, 2011 13:50:08 GMT -5
Glad I got something right! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2011 13:52:01 GMT -5
Exactly! And the "new" definition of a sub as for only below 50Hz seems not to be held to by any sub manufacturer or consumer. To each their own. Even THX defines a sub as being for 80Hz and below, not 50Hz. A sub is a very specialized piece of audio gear, required to reproduce the lower 2 octaves of the audible audio spectrum. THX (or George Lucas, or whoever) probably conducted a survey and found that most speakers don't produce much output below 80Hz. Given that common denominator (among others), they set up a standard so that equipment manufacturers could strive for some sort of standardization. Just because THX set up this standard it does not mean that following the standard of crossing over at 80 Hz will always provide the best audio reproduction in all situations. The SQ in your situation depends upon your equipment (and room) and its capabilities. Subs can be moved around when crossed over low enough due to the non-localization of low frequencies. As the frequency increases we need a vertical distribution in frequency ranges since horizontal distributions mess up our spacial cues. That's one main reason to use vertical center channels where possible. All I'm saying here is that we should not take the THX standard of crossing over our subs at 80 Hz as gospel. ahh well |
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Post by jamrock on Jul 10, 2011 14:41:31 GMT -5
I think that real, scientific research went into the THX standard that it can be generally accepted, but it might not be ideal for all situations and everyone. I X/O my sub & mains at 55Hz in my 2.1 rig. My full range -3dB is at 45Hz and I use a Velodyne SPL 12 sub for bass augmentation. The bass is just phenominal. However, my bookshelves -3dB is at 87Hz. So, I use the 80 Hz point to X/O all speakers. There is no bass localization and they too sound fantastic whether for movies or surround music. My new joy thing is 'Hell Freezes Over' by the Eagles in DTS surround. OMG!
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Post by ÈlTwo on Jul 10, 2011 15:51:13 GMT -5
My setup is used for DVD-A and SACD, as well as two channel and Movies. My bookshelves are rated at 45 Hz - 20 kHz, so I should be well withing their range with a 60Hz cross over. My bookshelves have 8" Woofers, and really are very large for bookshelves, 28 lbs each. This is what I have four of:  |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jul 10, 2011 19:49:36 GMT -5
Induction Dynamics has a speaker line that, IMO, comes very close to being a true one box solution. Their model ID1.18 reminded me of another little known company Legacy audio.  ID1.18  Legacy Helix But the Legacy's are far from affordable! |
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Post by bootman on Jul 10, 2011 20:14:39 GMT -5
My setup is used for DVD-A and SACD, as well as two channel and Movies. My bookshelves are rated at 45 Hz - 20 kHz, so I should be well withing their range with a 60Hz cross over. My bookshelves have 8" Woofers, and really are very large for bookshelves, 28 lbs each. This is what I have four of: These are discontinued. Have you done a writeup on them? They appear to have been replaced by the L820.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2011 20:23:39 GMT -5
But then Mr. Bauman advertises Bose Wave radios on his website so what does he know about quality sound? ( ;D ;D ;D) (sorry, that's probably a childish wisecrack...I saw the Bose ad yesterday and couldn't resist) I know you're kidding around, but just to be clear, you do realize that Google ads randomly selects that crap, right? I added ads to offset the cost of hosting the site, and thanks to gracious visitors, it's pretty much done its job. The site basically breaks even, which I think is great. Yeah Bill, I just happened to be at your site when the Bose Wave Radio was showing. I got a big laugh out of that and decided I would give you a bad time when I had the chance. I know they rotate those ads. ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2011 20:38:03 GMT -5
The apparent localization of bass is acceptable for movie playback. The bass should merge with the localized portion of the signal to give pseudo bass localization. If a train is passing from back to front at the right side of your H/T room, the total sound associated with that action should appear to come from the right side. That is because of the harmonics of the bass sounds are above 80Hz or so and thus you hear the localization from the right side speakers in addition to the bass below 80Hz that comes from the sub which you cannot localize. If all that was reproduced was the fundamental of say a 50Hz bass sound and no harmonics then you would not be able to localize where the train was since the only sound of the train would come from the sub (hypothetical example to illustrate the point). The lack of localization of the bass below 80Hz or so in the sub is the same for movies or music. The localization of the bass sound or instrument is only possible due to the harmonics above 80Hz or so reproduced by the main speakers providing the sub is crossed over at 80Hz. (yes there can be some slight localization depending on the steepness of the slopes but that is not the issue here). |
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 10, 2011 21:04:30 GMT -5
Induction Dynamics has a speaker line that, IMO, comes very close to being a true one box solution. Their model ID1.18 reminded me of another little known company Legacy audio. ID1.18 Legacy Helix But the Legacy's are far from affordable! Now THATS a tower speaker! Whatever happened to towers having large drivers in them? It seems like the manufacturers all decided one day that sat/sub systems, "lifestyle" systems, cube speakers, etc were all that people wanted. And the ones who continued to make towers have decided that they all need to be as narrow as possible, thus removing the space needed for large drivers.  Bring back big old 1970s speaker enclosures with dual 12s in each speaker cabinet! ;D |
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