The X-Ref 10 & 12 DSP Powered Subwoofers

[pop]

I have a X-Ref 12 in my little room and it is POWERFUL in here. I have it set extremely low and get ample bass. I would like to get a X-Ref 10 for the time being until we get into a bigger room. Not that I have ANY complaints about the 12 at all, I just think a 10 would be better suited for my room size. (room is 14'x14' with 9 foot ceilings) Besides I think the two together will just be literally amazing.

[doc1963]

Nov 29, 2011 21:16:31 GMT -5 roadrunner said:

Doc1963

With a room as small as yours, the X-Ref 10 subs are a perfect fit with your stated usage. You are going to like how musical these little subs gems are. A pair of these should put you on cloud nine. The DSP modes will allow you to tune them to your room and allow a better blend with your other speakers.

Thanks roadrunner. That's what I was thinking as well and I'm glad that you have validated it.

My Valors where purchased for a room much larger than where I currently reside and, contrary to popular belief, you CAN have too much subwoofer...

The Valors are fantastic subs in a larger room, but they need to be well driven to really open up. I cannot quite achieve that now (although I'm not complaining, just thinking that I can do better... ;D ).

I've attributed some of this to the shear mass of the driver combined with the thick, stiff foam surround, but concede that I may be wrong. I do, however, think that a smaller, quicker driver with an inherently superior transient response would provide the headroom needed to be driven harder and provide the musical "liveliness" that I'm after.

Looking back to the "old days", I've always felt that a smaller (10") woofer seemed to deliver both the best "attack" and overall bass response.

Thanks again.....

[sandtrooper]

I've found a pair of X-Ref 10s for sale. Would they have enough presence for my living room which is 20'X20'X9'? The rest of the speakers are ERM-8.3s for L/R and a ERM-6.3 for C.

[monkumonku]

I recently purchased a B-stock Xref-10 from the warehouse sale and decided to try dual subs so I bought a new Xref-12 to go with it. Here's my experiences so far:

I was using a Hsu VTF-2 Mk 3 sub, which I felt was very good. It could play deep and loud. The main drawback was the size. There are only 3 practical locations for subs in my listening room, and because it was so big, for the Hsu there was only one possible place.

The problem with the location was the interaction with the room. I used a Velodyne SMS-1 and that was a very big help but even so, there was a big null at 50 hz that I just could not overcome, so the bass always bothered me a bit.

When Emo had their recent warehouse sale, the price was so crazy low on the Xref-10 that I couldn't resist trying two subs. Then, after getting the Xref-10 I kept thinking I really needed to match them better because the Hsu is ported and 12" and the Xref-10 is sealed and 10". Emo had no more Xref-10's so I went for the Xref-12. Then I decided to sell the Hsu.

Last weekend I spent an entire afternoon doing all the possible permutations of the two subs in the three locations in the room, and also facing them in various ways. The three locations were the left and right front sides, and the right rear. The front of the room is problematical. But when I placed the sub in the right rear, it had nearly a flat response over the usable range without any EQ whatsoever. So that ended up being the preferred spot. The next best spot was the right front. So now I have two subs on the right side of the room, the Xref-10 in front and Xref-12 in the rear. The response curve as measured by the SMS-1 is very nicely flat. I only had to adjust one PEQ band of the Xref-10; the 12 is flat. I am not using the SMS-1 in the audio chain, I am only using it to measure the sub response and not make any adjustments.

Finally - the bass is great! As I said, the Hsu is a really good sub but it just couldn't overcome the location in the room even with the SMS-1. And it was too large to put in the rear where the Xref-12 is now.

So how do the two Xref subs sound? They do not play as low as the Hsu's (I got usable response down to about 14-15 hz with the Hsu's; the Xref's are in the mid-20's) but having two subs and being able to place them properly makes a big, big difference.

They are connected to the stereo L/R XLR outputs of the XSP-1. I was worried about localization, especially since I am using the stereo outputs when both subs are on the right, one in front and one in back, but the bass sounds like it is coming from the front with the rest of the recording. I can't tell there is a sub in the back unless I stand right next to it and listen. I'm sold on dual subs!

Also.. the bass is very musical - notes are distinct, smooth/even and have good tactile sense. The Xrefs can also play quite loud - much louder than I would ever need so they are more than adequate power-wise. The dial-in features (crossover, PEQ, etc.) work very well, too. The subs have solid build quality, look good and sound good. Some folks have commented that the subs are on the light side but I do not feel that has any negative impact on them. They feel solid, are very tuneful, and have good forceful impact when needed.

I don't need the SMS-1 anymore so I put it up for sale in the emporium section.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I am very happy with dual Xref subs. I was a little concerned about one being 10" and the other 12" but that doesn't seem to make much, if any difference.

[dcg44s]

Oct 29, 2012 23:11:41 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

I recently purchased a B-stock Xref-10 from the warehouse sale and decided to try dual subs so I bought a new Xref-12 to go with it. Here's my experiences so far:

I was using a Hsu VTF-2 Mk 3 sub, which I felt was very good. It could play deep and loud. The main drawback was the size. There are only 3 practical locations for subs in my listening room, and because it was so big, for the Hsu there was only one possible place.

The problem with the location was the interaction with the room. I used a Velodyne SMS-1 and that was a very big help but even so, there was a big null at 50 hz that I just could not overcome, so the bass always bothered me a bit.

When Emo had their recent warehouse sale, the price was so crazy low on the Xref-10 that I couldn't resist trying two subs. Then, after getting the Xref-10 I kept thinking I really needed to match them better because the Hsu is ported and 12" and the Xref-10 is sealed and 10". Emo had no more Xref-10's so I went for the Xref-12. Then I decided to sell the Hsu.

Last weekend I spent an entire afternoon doing all the possible permutations of the two subs in the three locations in the room, and also facing them in various ways. The three locations were the left and right front sides, and the right rear. The front of the room is problematical. But when I placed the sub in the right rear, it had nearly a flat response over the usable range without any EQ whatsoever. So that ended up being the preferred spot. The next best spot was the right front. So now I have two subs on the right side of the room, the Xref-10 in front and Xref-12 in the rear. The response curve as measured by the SMS-1 is very nicely flat. I only had to adjust one PEQ band of the Xref-10; the 12 is flat. I am not using the SMS-1 in the audio chain, I am only using it to measure the sub response and not make any adjustments.

Finally - the bass is great! As I said, the Hsu is a really good sub but it just couldn't overcome the location in the room even with the SMS-1. And it was too large to put in the rear where the Xref-12 is now.

So how do the two Xref subs sound? They do not play as low as the Hsu's (I got usable response down to about 14-15 hz with the Hsu's; the Xref's are in the mid-20's) but having two subs and being able to place them properly makes a big, big difference.

They are connected to the stereo L/R XLR outputs of the XSP-1. I was worried about localization, especially since I am using the stereo outputs when both subs are on the right, one in front and one in back, but the bass sounds like it is coming from the front with the rest of the recording. I can't tell there is a sub in the back unless I stand right next to it and listen. I'm sold on dual subs!

Also.. the bass is very musical - notes are distinct, smooth/even and have good tactile sense. The Xrefs can also play quite loud - much louder than I would ever need so they are more than adequate power-wise. The dial-in features (crossover, PEQ, etc.) work very well, too. The subs have solid build quality, look good and sound good. Some folks have commented that the subs are on the light side but I do not feel that has any negative impact on them. They feel solid, are very tuneful, and have good forceful impact when needed.

I don't need the SMS-1 anymore so I put it up for sale in the emporium section.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I am very happy with dual Xref subs. I was a little concerned about one being 10" and the other 12" but that doesn't seem to make much, if any difference.

Great job of describing the situation and the differences.It was very interesting to hear how the two different setups compared.Glad to hear that the experiment seems to be a big success for you.
I have contemplated experimenting with dual subs but so far I seem to always find a way to spend the money on something else first.

[monkumonku]

Oct 29, 2012 23:25:07 GMT -5 dcg44s said:

Oct 29, 2012 23:11:41 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

I recently purchased a B-stock Xref-10 from the warehouse sale and decided to try dual subs so I bought a new Xref-12 to go with it. Here's my experiences so far:

I was using a Hsu VTF-2 Mk 3 sub, which I felt was very good. It could play deep and loud. The main drawback was the size. There are only 3 practical locations for subs in my listening room, and because it was so big, for the Hsu there was only one possible place.

The problem with the location was the interaction with the room. I used a Velodyne SMS-1 and that was a very big help but even so, there was a big null at 50 hz that I just could not overcome, so the bass always bothered me a bit.

When Emo had their recent warehouse sale, the price was so crazy low on the Xref-10 that I couldn't resist trying two subs. Then, after getting the Xref-10 I kept thinking I really needed to match them better because the Hsu is ported and 12" and the Xref-10 is sealed and 10". Emo had no more Xref-10's so I went for the Xref-12. Then I decided to sell the Hsu.

Last weekend I spent an entire afternoon doing all the possible permutations of the two subs in the three locations in the room, and also facing them in various ways. The three locations were the left and right front sides, and the right rear. The front of the room is problematical. But when I placed the sub in the right rear, it had nearly a flat response over the usable range without any EQ whatsoever. So that ended up being the preferred spot. The next best spot was the right front. So now I have two subs on the right side of the room, the Xref-10 in front and Xref-12 in the rear. The response curve as measured by the SMS-1 is very nicely flat. I only had to adjust one PEQ band of the Xref-10; the 12 is flat. I am not using the SMS-1 in the audio chain, I am only using it to measure the sub response and not make any adjustments.

Finally - the bass is great! As I said, the Hsu is a really good sub but it just couldn't overcome the location in the room even with the SMS-1. And it was too large to put in the rear where the Xref-12 is now.

So how do the two Xref subs sound? They do not play as low as the Hsu's (I got usable response down to about 14-15 hz with the Hsu's; the Xref's are in the mid-20's) but having two subs and being able to place them properly makes a big, big difference.

They are connected to the stereo L/R XLR outputs of the XSP-1. I was worried about localization, especially since I am using the stereo outputs when both subs are on the right, one in front and one in back, but the bass sounds like it is coming from the front with the rest of the recording. I can't tell there is a sub in the back unless I stand right next to it and listen. I'm sold on dual subs!

Also.. the bass is very musical - notes are distinct, smooth/even and have good tactile sense. The Xrefs can also play quite loud - much louder than I would ever need so they are more than adequate power-wise. The dial-in features (crossover, PEQ, etc.) work very well, too. The subs have solid build quality, look good and sound good. Some folks have commented that the subs are on the light side but I do not feel that has any negative impact on them. They feel solid, are very tuneful, and have good forceful impact when needed.

I don't need the SMS-1 anymore so I put it up for sale in the emporium section.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I am very happy with dual Xref subs. I was a little concerned about one being 10" and the other 12" but that doesn't seem to make much, if any difference.

Great job of describing the situation and the differences.It was very interesting to hear how the two different setups compared.Glad to hear that the experiment seems to be a big success for you.
I have contemplated experimenting with dual subs but so far I seem to always find a way to spend the money on something else first.

Thanks... I always seem to find a way to spend money.. period. ;D I think it was well worth the expenditure for these subs, as with what they say about real estate, it's also true with subs - location, location and location are important. Of course you have to start with a good sub but I think these Emos fit the bill. I like their relatively compact size, too.

[paintedklown]

Oct 29, 2012 23:11:41 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

I recently purchased a B-stock Xref-10 from the warehouse sale and decided to try dual subs so I bought a new Xref-12 to go with it. Here's my experiences so far:

I was using a Hsu VTF-2 Mk 3 sub, which I felt was very good. It could play deep and loud. The main drawback was the size. There are only 3 practical locations for subs in my listening room, and because it was so big, for the Hsu there was only one possible place.

The problem with the location was the interaction with the room. I used a Velodyne SMS-1 and that was a very big help but even so, there was a big null at 50 hz that I just could not overcome, so the bass always bothered me a bit.

When Emo had their recent warehouse sale, the price was so crazy low on the Xref-10 that I couldn't resist trying two subs. Then, after getting the Xref-10 I kept thinking I really needed to match them better because the Hsu is ported and 12" and the Xref-10 is sealed and 10". Emo had no more Xref-10's so I went for the Xref-12. Then I decided to sell the Hsu.

Last weekend I spent an entire afternoon doing all the possible permutations of the two subs in the three locations in the room, and also facing them in various ways. The three locations were the left and right front sides, and the right rear. The front of the room is problematical. But when I placed the sub in the right rear, it had nearly a flat response over the usable range without any EQ whatsoever. So that ended up being the preferred spot. The next best spot was the right front. So now I have two subs on the right side of the room, the Xref-10 in front and Xref-12 in the rear. The response curve as measured by the SMS-1 is very nicely flat. I only had to adjust one PEQ band of the Xref-10; the 12 is flat. I am not using the SMS-1 in the audio chain, I am only using it to measure the sub response and not make any adjustments.

Finally - the bass is great! As I said, the Hsu is a really good sub but it just couldn't overcome the location in the room even with the SMS-1. And it was too large to put in the rear where the Xref-12 is now.

So how do the two Xref subs sound? They do not play as low as the Hsu's (I got usable response down to about 14-15 hz with the Hsu's; the Xref's are in the mid-20's) but having two subs and being able to place them properly makes a big, big difference.

They are connected to the stereo L/R XLR outputs of the XSP-1. I was worried about localization, especially since I am using the stereo outputs when both subs are on the right, one in front and one in back, but the bass sounds like it is coming from the front with the rest of the recording. I can't tell there is a sub in the back unless I stand right next to it and listen. I'm sold on dual subs!

Also.. the bass is very musical - notes are distinct, smooth/even and have good tactile sense. The Xrefs can also play quite loud - much louder than I would ever need so they are more than adequate power-wise. The dial-in features (crossover, PEQ, etc.) work very well, too. The subs have solid build quality, look good and sound good. Some folks have commented that the subs are on the light side but I do not feel that has any negative impact on them. They feel solid, are very tuneful, and have good forceful impact when needed.

I don't need the SMS-1 anymore so I put it up for sale in the emporium section.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I am very happy with dual Xref subs. I was a little concerned about one being 10" and the other 12" but that doesn't seem to make much, if any difference.

Rickie,
Excellent and detailed write up here.

I am glad to see the Emo subs are doing what you need them to do. It may just be me, but I have always preferred sealed (vs. ported) subs...going all the way back to my teens in the car audio days.

Thanks for the review.

[geebo]

Oct 29, 2012 23:11:41 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

I recently purchased a B-stock Xref-10 from the warehouse sale and decided to try dual subs so I bought a new Xref-12 to go with it. Here's my experiences so far:

I was using a Hsu VTF-2 Mk 3 sub, which I felt was very good. It could play deep and loud. The main drawback was the size. There are only 3 practical locations for subs in my listening room, and because it was so big, for the Hsu there was only one possible place.

The problem with the location was the interaction with the room. I used a Velodyne SMS-1 and that was a very big help but even so, there was a big null at 50 hz that I just could not overcome, so the bass always bothered me a bit.

When Emo had their recent warehouse sale, the price was so crazy low on the Xref-10 that I couldn't resist trying two subs. Then, after getting the Xref-10 I kept thinking I really needed to match them better because the Hsu is ported and 12" and the Xref-10 is sealed and 10". Emo had no more Xref-10's so I went for the Xref-12. Then I decided to sell the Hsu.

Last weekend I spent an entire afternoon doing all the possible permutations of the two subs in the three locations in the room, and also facing them in various ways. The three locations were the left and right front sides, and the right rear. The front of the room is problematical. But when I placed the sub in the right rear, it had nearly a flat response over the usable range without any EQ whatsoever. So that ended up being the preferred spot. The next best spot was the right front. So now I have two subs on the right side of the room, the Xref-10 in front and Xref-12 in the rear. The response curve as measured by the SMS-1 is very nicely flat. I only had to adjust one PEQ band of the Xref-10; the 12 is flat. I am not using the SMS-1 in the audio chain, I am only using it to measure the sub response and not make any adjustments.

Finally - the bass is great! As I said, the Hsu is a really good sub but it just couldn't overcome the location in the room even with the SMS-1. And it was too large to put in the rear where the Xref-12 is now.

So how do the two Xref subs sound? They do not play as low as the Hsu's (I got usable response down to about 14-15 hz with the Hsu's; the Xref's are in the mid-20's) but having two subs and being able to place them properly makes a big, big difference.

They are connected to the stereo L/R XLR outputs of the XSP-1. I was worried about localization, especially since I am using the stereo outputs when both subs are on the right, one in front and one in back, but the bass sounds like it is coming from the front with the rest of the recording. I can't tell there is a sub in the back unless I stand right next to it and listen. I'm sold on dual subs!

Also.. the bass is very musical - notes are distinct, smooth/even and have good tactile sense. The Xrefs can also play quite loud - much louder than I would ever need so they are more than adequate power-wise. The dial-in features (crossover, PEQ, etc.) work very well, too. The subs have solid build quality, look good and sound good. Some folks have commented that the subs are on the light side but I do not feel that has any negative impact on them. They feel solid, are very tuneful, and have good forceful impact when needed.

I don't need the SMS-1 anymore so I put it up for sale in the emporium section.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I am very happy with dual Xref subs. I was a little concerned about one being 10" and the other 12" but that doesn't seem to make much, if any difference.

Nice report, monku. That is pretty much what I found when going to two subs. I was able to take the Behringer 1124P completely out of the syetem and get as good a response as I did with it and one sub, but cleaner and better defined as well.
So when will you be adding two more? I hear quads are to die for. ;D

[monkumonku]

Oct 30, 2012 7:35:53 GMT -5 geebo said:

Oct 29, 2012 23:11:41 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

I recently purchased a B-stock Xref-10 from the warehouse sale and decided to try dual subs so I bought a new Xref-12 to go with it. Here's my experiences so far:

I was using a Hsu VTF-2 Mk 3 sub, which I felt was very good. It could play deep and loud. The main drawback was the size. There are only 3 practical locations for subs in my listening room, and because it was so big, for the Hsu there was only one possible place.

The problem with the location was the interaction with the room. I used a Velodyne SMS-1 and that was a very big help but even so, there was a big null at 50 hz that I just could not overcome, so the bass always bothered me a bit.

When Emo had their recent warehouse sale, the price was so crazy low on the Xref-10 that I couldn't resist trying two subs. Then, after getting the Xref-10 I kept thinking I really needed to match them better because the Hsu is ported and 12" and the Xref-10 is sealed and 10". Emo had no more Xref-10's so I went for the Xref-12. Then I decided to sell the Hsu.

Last weekend I spent an entire afternoon doing all the possible permutations of the two subs in the three locations in the room, and also facing them in various ways. The three locations were the left and right front sides, and the right rear. The front of the room is problematical. But when I placed the sub in the right rear, it had nearly a flat response over the usable range without any EQ whatsoever. So that ended up being the preferred spot. The next best spot was the right front. So now I have two subs on the right side of the room, the Xref-10 in front and Xref-12 in the rear. The response curve as measured by the SMS-1 is very nicely flat. I only had to adjust one PEQ band of the Xref-10; the 12 is flat. I am not using the SMS-1 in the audio chain, I am only using it to measure the sub response and not make any adjustments.

Finally - the bass is great! As I said, the Hsu is a really good sub but it just couldn't overcome the location in the room even with the SMS-1. And it was too large to put in the rear where the Xref-12 is now.

So how do the two Xref subs sound? They do not play as low as the Hsu's (I got usable response down to about 14-15 hz with the Hsu's; the Xref's are in the mid-20's) but having two subs and being able to place them properly makes a big, big difference.

They are connected to the stereo L/R XLR outputs of the XSP-1. I was worried about localization, especially since I am using the stereo outputs when both subs are on the right, one in front and one in back, but the bass sounds like it is coming from the front with the rest of the recording. I can't tell there is a sub in the back unless I stand right next to it and listen. I'm sold on dual subs!

Also.. the bass is very musical - notes are distinct, smooth/even and have good tactile sense. The Xrefs can also play quite loud - much louder than I would ever need so they are more than adequate power-wise. The dial-in features (crossover, PEQ, etc.) work very well, too. The subs have solid build quality, look good and sound good. Some folks have commented that the subs are on the light side but I do not feel that has any negative impact on them. They feel solid, are very tuneful, and have good forceful impact when needed.

I don't need the SMS-1 anymore so I put it up for sale in the emporium section.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I am very happy with dual Xref subs. I was a little concerned about one being 10" and the other 12" but that doesn't seem to make much, if any difference.

Nice report, monku. That is pretty much what I found when going to two subs. I was able to take the Behringer 1124P completely out of the syetem and get as good a response as I did with it and one sub, but cleaner and better defined as well.
So when will you be adding two more? I hear quads are to die for. ;D

Stop trying to tempt me!

[sandtrooper]

Monku, what is the size of the room where you are using the dual subs?

[monkumonku]

Oct 30, 2012 21:11:40 GMT -5 sandtrooper said:

Monku, what is the size of the room where you are using the dual subs?

It's about 19' deep x 16' wide x 8' tall. However it opens up to the kitchen area.

[copperband]

in terms of phase on the two subs, is one 0 and the other 180?

I do agree two subs are better than one now after trying for movies, even though my two subs are different type and they are not so good match..

[jking]

Aug 24, 2011 18:52:47 GMT -5 LCSeminole said:

emotiva.com/xref_sub10.shtm

emotiva.com/xref_sub12.shtm

Good looking set of new sealed subwoofers, shipping on August 31.

SO where are the Subs?? the links do not work for me and I can not find them on the site.

[monkumonku]

Jun 25, 2013 10:55:20 GMT -5 jking said:

Aug 24, 2011 18:52:47 GMT -5 LCSeminole said:

emotiva.com/xref_sub10.shtm

emotiva.com/xref_sub12.shtm

Good looking set of new sealed subwoofers, shipping on August 31.

SO where are the Subs?? the links do not work for me and I can not find them on the site.

That post was back from 2011. The subs were released, sold out and now discontinued.

[jking]

THanks, Next time I will look at the dates. I keep seeing a Sub on the front Web page and was hoping they may be selling some. I have 2 very old B&W 800ASW subs that are just to big. Sound great but need a smaller size. I found a B&W 650 on craig list for a good price but wanted to see what Emo might have had.

[AudioHTIT]

Jun 25, 2013 11:55:12 GMT -5 jking said:

THanks, Next time I will look at the dates. I keep seeing a Sub on the front Web page and was hoping they may be selling some. I have 2 very old B&W 800ASW subs that are just to big. Sound great but need a smaller size. I found a B&W 650 on craig list for a good price but wanted to see what Emo might have had.

If you need something soon you might check out SVS.