KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,276
|
Post by KeithL on Oct 6, 2016 9:44:01 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the cost vs convenience equation is very different for different people.... In the past, we've had many international customers who were quite unhappy about what it cost to return their unit here to the US for warranty repair. Now, obviously, the cost of shipping varies widely between different countries; for example, in Germany, at "retail" shipping rates, the round trip shipping on some of our units actually costs more than the original cost of the unit. This is the main reason we've switched over to a "dealer system" in many areas - because our customers were dissatisfied at what it cost to ship their units back here for warranty repair and wanted a local option. (Unfortunately, in many cases, the shipping costs, and the prices local dealers choose to charge, are simply not under our control - especially when currency exchange rates are involved.) I think we understand that view Jess, but from our perspective with a $US1,699 direct price and a $A3,999 local price I could make 2 trips to Franklin for warranty repairs and have a couple of weeks holiday in the US while I'm there. Or I could buy 2 x XMC-1's and have one sitting in the cupboard as a spare. That's the reality, local warranty simply isn't worth the cost. Cheers Gary Totally agree Gary, I think Jess has missed the point, its all about cost. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,276
|
Post by KeithL on Oct 6, 2016 10:06:12 GMT -5
The answer to your question is actually quite simple...... (and you've already answered it yourself). There will ALWAYS be something newer on the horizon; it is NEVER going to stop. You can either wait FOREVER for the upgrade train to stop, and be continually disappointed, or you can buy what you need today and enjoy it. The current upgrade board will allow you to connect a "regular 4k UHD device" to your XMC-1. Therefore, if you have a regular 4k device you need to connect, then it will do just what you want. And, if you have a non-HDR 4k TV right now, and only need to connect a single 4k device to it, then this is all you need, and next year's board won't help you at all. (And, if your needs change, then you can buy the new one next year.) If you have a 4k HDR TV, and have or plan to get some HDR sources, then you should probably wait. And, if you DON'T have a 4k TV, and DON'T plan to buy one this year, or you have a 4k TV, but do all your streaming in the TV itself, then there's no reason to upgrade. If you really insist on waiting for the absolute final latest and greatest, then you can start by throwing away EVERYTHING you have now..... And don't even think about buying ANYTHING you can buy now.... They're already previewed 8k TVs in Japan.... But we all know that someday, and probably sooner than you might hope, they'll be "obsolete" too.... At least, because the XMC-1 is modular, you'll have the OPTION of getting next year's upgrades when they come out. (But nobody's telling you you've got to buy them.) So one can currently upgrade to the new 2.0 2.2 board now but then there will be another new board released soon that does HDR, why not just wait for that board then  ?? am I missing something, like how many HDMI boards does one need to buy to keep up with the emerging and ever non stop releases of HDMI specs. I myself unless I win the lotto will be using my trusty ol 7020 with 1.4 for a long time as it seems you are either rich or stupid to continuously try and keep up with the latest and greatest in audio video. The HDMI standards can be somewhat complicated - and sometimes include things that are mandatory and things that are optional. The HDMI 2.0 spec is a transport spec. HDMI 2.0 REQUIRES a 9 Gbps bandwidth, and does NOT require HDCP 2.2 support (the faster 18 Gbps video is optional with HDMI 2.0) With HDMI 1.4b, the HDCP support is part of the spec; with HDMI 2.0 it is not (hey, we didn't write it  ). The 4k UHD video spec is tied to the content; it's what you need to play 4k UHD Blu-Ray discs and 4k UHD content from cable and satellite or streaming providers. It is the 4k UHD video spec that requires the HDCP 2.2 copy protection - for example, the 4k video from an upsampling player, or a video file on a stick, shouldn't require it.. (In order to play 4k UHD video, you need BOTH HDMI 2.0 AND HDCP 2.2 ) The original XMC-1 actually meets the HDMI 2.0 spec but, since many people assume (incorrectly) that any equipment that is HDMI 2.0 compliant will also pass 4k UHD content, it seemed less confusing to mis-state the situation by just saying that the XMC-1 was HDMI 1.4b, rather than have people assume something that wasn't true - and be dissatisfied when their XMC-1 wouldn't play 4k UHD content (because of backwards compatibility, the original XMC-1 is both HDMI 1.4b and HDMI 2.0 compatible). The current HDMI upgrade board for the XMC-1 has the same video switching capabilities as the previous one; what's been added is the separate processor required to support HDCP 2.2 . The newer HDMI 2.0a and HDMI 2.0b specs, which support different HDR implementations, have additional requirements - including the fact that 18 Gbps becomes mandatory rather than optional. (That's one reason why we have another HDMI upgrade in the works - it will use newer switches that support the "higher" formats.) And, lest you get comfortable, HDMI 2.1 is due for release around the end of the year (and no details there yet whether it will do anything we all care about or not).  (This is all the reason why upgradability is so important.) |
|
|
|
Post by pedrocols on Oct 6, 2016 10:30:26 GMT -5
I posted a comment about being fed up reading about the XMC-1 dating back several years ago. Can someone please make it stop? Marketing 101...
|
|
|
|
Post by creimes on Oct 6, 2016 10:35:19 GMT -5
Okay so I myself am not rich but I am sometimes stupid but not stupid rich haha, and yes I know what you mean about it never ending otherwise how would you guys keep making money right  , I really have no issue with it as I enjoy my system on a daily basis even though it is a measly 2k lol, can our eyes even distinguish 8k from 4k like geez so ridiculous, maybe one day when 4k projectors come down to where 2k ones are at now and 4k is more the norm I would be willing to change up that is if and when I have the disposable funds but for now I'm doing okay  The answer to your question is actually quite simple...... (and you've already answered it yourself). There will ALWAYS be something newer on the horizon; it is NEVER going to stop. You can either wait FOREVER for the upgrade train to stop, and be continually disappointed, or you can buy what you need today and enjoy it. The current upgrade board will allow you to connect a "regular 4k UHD device" to your XMC-1. Therefore, if you have a regular 4k device you need to connect, then it will do just what you want. And, if you have a non-HDR 4k TV right now, and only need to connect a single 4k device to it, then this is all you need, and next year's board won't help you at all. (And, if your needs change, then you can buy the new one next year.) If you have a 4k HDR TV, and have or plan to get some HDR sources, then you should probably wait. And, if you DON'T have a 4k TV, and DON'T plan to buy one this year, or you have a 4k TV, but do all your streaming in the TV itself, then there's no reason to upgrade. If you really insist on waiting for the absolute final latest and greatest, then you can start by throwing away EVERYTHING you have now..... And don't even think about buying ANYTHING you can buy now.... They're already previewed 8k TVs in Japan.... But we all know that someday, and probably sooner than you might hope, they'll be "obsolete" too.... At least, because the XMC-1 is modular, you'll have the OPTION of getting next year's upgrades when they come out. (But nobody's telling you you've got to buy them.) So one can currently upgrade to the new 2.0 2.2 board now but then there will be another new board released soon that does HDR, why not just wait for that board then ?? am I missing something, like how many HDMI boards does one need to buy to keep up with the emerging and ever non stop releases of HDMI specs. I myself unless I win the lotto will be using my trusty ol 7020 with 1.4 for a long time as it seems you are either rich or stupid to continuously try and keep up with the latest and greatest in audio video. |
|
|
|
Post by geebo on Oct 6, 2016 10:38:20 GMT -5
So one can currently upgrade to the new 2.0 2.2 board now but then there will be another new board released soon that does HDR, why not just wait for that board then ?? am I missing something, like how many HDMI boards does one need to buy to keep up with the emerging and ever non stop releases of HDMI specs. I myself unless I win the lotto will be using my trusty ol 7020 with 1.4 for a long time as it seems you are either rich or stupid to continuously try and keep up with the latest and greatest in audio video. The HDMI standards can be somewhat complicated - and sometimes include things that are mandatory and things that are optional. The HDMI 2.0 spec is a transport spec. HDMI 2.0 REQUIRES a 9 Gbps bandwidth, and does NOT require HDCP 2.2 support (the faster 18 Gbps video is optional with HDMI 2.0) With HDMI 1.4b, the HDCP support is part of the spec; with HDMI 2.0 it is not (hey, we didn't write it ). The 4k UHD video spec is tied to the content; it's what you need to play 4k UHD Blu-Ray discs and 4k UHD content from cable and satellite or streaming providers. It is the 4k UHD video spec that requires the HDCP 2.2 copy protection - for example, the 4k video from an upsampling player, or a video file on a stick, shouldn't require it.. (In order to play 4k UHD video, you need BOTH HDMI 2.0 AND HDCP 2.2 ) The original XMC-1 actually meets the HDMI 2.0 spec but, since many people assume (incorrectly) that any equipment that is HDMI 2.0 compliant will also pass 4k UHD content, it seemed less confusing to mis-state the situation by just saying that the XMC-1 was HDMI 1.4b, rather than have people assume something that wasn't true - and be dissatisfied when their XMC-1 wouldn't play 4k UHD content (because of backwards compatibility, the original XMC-1 is both HDMI 1.4b and HDMI 2.0 compatible). The current HDMI upgrade board for the XMC-1 has the same video switching capabilities as the previous one; what's been added is the separate processor required to support HDCP 2.2 . The newer HDMI 2.0a and HDMI 2.0b specs, which support different HDR implementations, have additional requirements - including the fact that 18 Gbps becomes mandatory rather than optional. (That's one reason why we have another HDMI upgrade in the works - it will use newer switches that support the "higher" formats.) And, lest you get comfortable, HDMI 2.1 is due for release around the end of the year (and no details there yet whether it will do anything we all care about or not). (This is all the reason why upgradability is so important.) If you want to pass protected 4K video now through the XMC, it's the only way. Some people may chose to wait and others may not. We have a choice. I will want to play my 4K movies immediately when I get the soon to be released Oppo 4K player. |
|
|
|
Post by Jessica on Oct 6, 2016 10:53:39 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the cost vs convenience equation is very different for different people.... In the past, we've had many international customers who were quite unhappy about what it cost to return their unit here to the US for warranty repair. Now, obviously, the cost of shipping varies widely between different countries; for example, in Germany, at "retail" shipping rates, the round trip shipping on some of our units actually costs more than the original cost of the unit. This is the main reason we've switched over to a "dealer system" in many areas - because our customers were dissatisfied at what it cost to ship their units back here for warranty repair and wanted a local option. (Unfortunately, in many cases, the shipping costs, and the prices local dealers choose to charge, are simply not under our control - especially when currency exchange rates are involved.) Totally agree Gary, I think Jess has missed the point, its all about cost. Some promotions are not available through dealers and distributors. If we have a closeout, clearance, or Factory Renewed Sale, our U.S. dealers and international distributors, under some circumstances do not participate. The $1699 XMC-1 closeout is only available direct through Emotiva. Same for the Airmotiv 3B clearance. |
|
|
|
Post by ÈlTwo on Oct 6, 2016 11:00:02 GMT -5
(But nobody's telling you you've got to buy them.) No, I'm sorry there's a little voice in my head that keeps telling me I have to buy stuff.  |
|
|
|
Post by wizardofoz on Oct 6, 2016 12:03:34 GMT -5
Jessica the issue is there is no option to buy direct anymore even you are ok with no warranty at all, or the cost of returning it assuming you are now in a county with a local dealer/distributor. Return clients lost as a result. And the bigger issue is that the new dealer networks won't touch the exiting and for many still under warranty service issues either.
This is all probably falling on deaf ears...so I'll just give up now,
Besides it's a bit off topic...maybe I'll requote this in the international thread
|
|
|
|
Post by rbk123 on Oct 6, 2016 12:44:05 GMT -5
They know, they (Emo) just had to pick their poison. They were getting killed on all the international customers abusing their service and good nature. Now they'll suffer due to some/many international customers not purchasing further. The question will be which way impacts revenue worse. If they lose too much revenue from international sales, they'll switch back or modify their policy to somewhere in the middle and see how that goes. They had to make a change and this is what they're trying first; time will tell if they need to make another change.
|
|
Erwin.BE
Emo VIPs 
It's the room, stupid!
Posts: 2,269
|
Post by Erwin.BE on Oct 6, 2016 13:06:41 GMT -5
Dan and the bean counters there have really messed up the loyalty of existing international owners to the point of killing any repeat buyers if you ask me. It a sad situation as Emotiva had such a lot going for it over the past 6-7 years - now most of that advantage is now lost. Still at least it widens the options for most buyers now as there is more to choose from in the higher price brackets Emotiva is now forced to play in in markets where they now have local distributors. Maybe they will rethink this silliness one day. Thank you for the feedback. Our international distributors offer local service and support. Currently, if you bought from us direct Internationally, your unit must come back to the USA for service, and you cover the shipping expenses both ways. With product warranties lasting five years, and there's an array of possible reasons products need to come back in for service. There is a risk that you may have to ship your product back to us if anything should go wrong. Our best hope is that nothing happens, and we have great confidence in our products. However, things do happen on the occasion. We've found that customers are more frustrated and upset when they need to service or return than they are buying with local support and service. What happened to the repair shop in Holland for us EU customers? I have a ton of Emotiva units and none has ever needed servicing. My XMC-1 will obviously need to be serviced to enable Atmos, so why not let the repair specialist take care of it, instead of paying a huge markup for everything we buy but seldom needs servicing? |
|
|
|
Post by cwt on Oct 7, 2016 1:50:50 GMT -5
instead of paying a huge markup for everything we buy but seldom needs servicing? That's the crux of it for Aus too Erwin; a good warranty is worth it when importing a fragile intricate device like a projector ;less so for a pre pro and even less for a power amp in my experience . I haven't seen any fluctuation much in the price the local distributor charges for say an xmc1 even though exchange rates have altered .. Exactly ; and I think I read they are to be trained in upgrading xmc1's to the object codecs but does this apply to ones they haven't sold ? I am not very confident  |
|
|
|
Post by jim7777777 on Oct 11, 2016 5:38:53 GMT -5
(Unfortunately, in many cases, the shipping costs, and the prices local dealers choose to charge, are simply not under our control - especially when currency exchange rates are involved.) Surely you would have had a conversation with potential dealers regarding where they were going to position your products in the market prior to appointing them? I understand you can't control the prices charged for legal reasons but I think the damage to your sales caused by sky-high prices must be significant... Or I could be totally wrong! I have close to 10K worth of Emo kit that I wouldn't buy again at current Aussie prices if my house burned down and the insurance company handed me a big fat cheque. That should tell you something important. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,276
|
Post by KeithL on Oct 11, 2016 10:25:07 GMT -5
I'm going to be totally honest with you here....... We all live in a free market economy - including the guys down under. It's not like we sent a few of our close friends down there to open an audio store, and sat down with them in some back room and decided "what we should charge the Aussies for Emo gear". We didn't pick one dealer in your area so they could be your only lifeline to buying Emotiva gear, and they could charge you whatever extortionate rate they like. When we sign on a local dealer, we sell them the equipment at wholesale price, and they get to decide the retail price. I suspect that what they charge probably has a lot to do with things like paying the rent, and paying their sales people, and even stuff like shipping. Running a store is expensive. If you really think your local dealers are making an unreasonable mark-up, then you should open your own audio store next door and compete with them. If you're right, then there should be an opportunity there to get rich. (I don't know for sure why shipping there is so darned expensive... although I have a few guesses. I can tell you that we didn't do it, and we don't make money on the shipping. Fix that little problem and things might be slightly different.) We started out selling direct... everywhere... but our customers overseas complained about high shipping costs, and not being able to audition gear locally, and the high cost of shipping gear back to the US for warranty service (and even for out of warranty service). This is the other option; this is "Plan B". This way you get a local dealer who you can buy from, and who can provide service for you, and who probably even has a showroom where you can listen to stuff. There's a very good reason why we don't offer both options in most areas. Here in the US, shipping is relatively reasonable, and, as a result, we've lost most of our local high-end audio stores. Amazingly, when given the option, many people chose to go to a local store to hear the gear, then went home and ordered it online - from the cheapest place. They loved the idea of being able to audition gear locally, and talk to a knowledgeable salesman about it, and get local service when they needed it, but they also wanted the lowest price. Because so many people did this, especially with audio equipment, most of the stores went out of business. They're in business to make a living, and they can't match the price of someone who doesn't provide service or maintain a showroom - unless you want to start paying by the hour to audition audio gear. For this reasons, it's generally agreed that we won't compete against our dealers in areas where we have dealers. (This is pretty standard practice.) It's unfortunate that some people prefer things one way, and some the other, because it forces us to make a choice.... and we can;t please everyone. (Unfortunately, in many cases, the shipping costs, and the prices local dealers choose to charge, are simply not under our control - especially when currency exchange rates are involved.) Surely you would have had a conversation with potential dealers regarding where they were going to position your products in the market prior to appointing them? I understand you can't control the prices charged for legal reasons but I think the damage to your sales caused by sky-high prices must be significant... Or I could be totally wrong! I have close to 10K worth of Emo kit that I wouldn't buy again at current Aussie prices if my house burned down and the insurance company handed me a big fat cheque. That should tell you something important. |
|
|
|
Post by mick on Oct 11, 2016 10:50:50 GMT -5
Keith,
Final link is based in Victoria Australia ......I live in Perth Western Australia, I wouldn't say I was local to final link and I'm certainly not going to fly to Victoria to listen to Emo gear.
Why cant I buy direct from Emo based on the above? Your post above surely cant apply to me.
Why didn't you supply an Australian wide retail shop?
cheers
Mick
|
|
|
|
Post by Jessica on Oct 11, 2016 11:00:05 GMT -5
Keith, Final link is based in Victoria Australia ......I live in Perth Western Australia, I wouldn't say I was local to final link and I'm certainly not going to fly to Victoria to listen to Emo gear. Why cant I buy direct from Emo based on the above? Your post above surely cant apply to me. Why didn't you supply an Australian wide retail shop? cheers Mick Mick, you can buy direct from Final Link or a retailer in your area. Final Link has free shipping if you order direct through them. There are also local dealers and retailers in Australia now. If you like to find a local dealer or retailer close to you, Final Link can point you in that direction as well. |
|
|
|
Post by mick on Oct 11, 2016 11:03:26 GMT -5
This a reminder about no extra cost buying from a retailer
Dan Laufman Avatar
Jun 11, 2015 at 6:03am Dan Laufman said:
Hi guys,
Please relax. Change is unsettling and sometimes misunderstood. Please let me put your concerns to rest...
We not raising our prices. We will accommodate our retail partners without raising our prices to our customers. We've spent quite a bit of time developing our blended market strategy and we will not do it on the backs of our customers by raising our prices.
Look around the market and find any brand that is close to us from a competitive standpoint. We don't plan on giving this position up. Ever.
We will NEVER stop selling direct to our customers. At the same time, we want more people of learn about the brand and have the chance to experience Emotiva in their homes. Not everyone is a hobbyist. Some people have no desire to set up and program their gear. They want to have someone else do it for them. For them a retail partner is needed to help them realize their goals. Some people need to touch, feel, and hear their gear before making a purchase decision. They need a retail environment. We want our brand to be accessible to anyone who is interested in becoming an owner and a part of our customer family.
We're growing and this is a good thing for everyone involved!
Please know that our customers needs and concerns are very important to us. We are making these changes to better serve everyone. We know where we've come from and we know where we are going; and we want all of you to come along with us.
Cheers,
Big Dan
|
|
|
|
Post by mick on Oct 11, 2016 11:12:11 GMT -5
Jess,
The whole idea of the retail out-lets was so customers could hear before they buy....correct? there are NO out-lets here in Western Australia, my XMC-1 cost me $3k landed in Perth Western Australia from Emo based in usa, why would I buy from Final Link and pay $4k?
Cheers
Mick
|
|
|
|
Post by wizardofoz on Oct 11, 2016 11:14:32 GMT -5
I was about to look for that post of Dan's...you saved me the trouble.
We will accommodate our retail partners without raising our prices to our customers.
I new deep down this was not likely to ever be achievable.
|
|
|
|
Post by brutiarti on Oct 11, 2016 11:37:25 GMT -5
It is clear that big Dan was talking about CONUS.
|
|
|
|
Post by Wideawake on Oct 11, 2016 11:44:08 GMT -5
I was about to look for that post of Dan's...you saved me the trouble. We will accommodate our retail partners without raising our prices to our customers. I new deep down this was not likely to ever be achievable. I think you’ve misunderstood Dan’s statement. What he likely meant to say is that Emotiva will not increase the retail price of their products when they sign up dealers into their network. Typically, dealers will want a 40% margin to cover their showroom, inventory and marketing costs. Most OEMs will set an MSRP that’s slightly higher than the highest retail price set by their dealers. This is so that the dealers don’t have price competition from the OEM or else the OEM will lose those dealer accounts since the dealers will not be able to sell any of their equipment. So, Dan was stating that he will keep the retail price the same on their direct channel while allowing the dealers to set their own market pricing. Thereby, not affecting prices (i.e. Emo direct pricing). That’s my interpretation of his statement. I could be wrong too. |
|
I think we understand that view Jess, but from our perspective with a $US1,699 direct price and a $A3,999 local price I could make 2 trips to Franklin for warranty repairs and have a couple of weeks holiday in the US while I'm there. Or I could buy 2 x XMC-1's and have one sitting in the cupboard as a spare. That's the reality, local warranty simply isn't worth the cost. 
?? am I missing something, like how many HDMI boards does one need to buy to keep up with the emerging and ever non stop releases of HDMI specs.
).
, I really have no issue with it as I enjoy my system on a daily basis even though it is a measly 2k lol, can our eyes even distinguish 8k from 4k like geez so ridiculous, maybe one day when 4k projectors come down to where 2k ones are at now and 4k is more the norm I would be willing to change up that is if and when I have the disposable funds but for now I'm doing okay 
