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Post by jcisbig on Jan 10, 2017 19:30:28 GMT -5
I have set up both the Sherbourn 8100 and Fusion 8100 receivers in family & friends' homes and they are/were a fantastic bang for the buck. They were a great way for someone who didn't have enough money for separates to get into the realm of truly great sound quality from a US based retailer. The sound quality, small package, PEQs, true "Emotiva" power ratings, and pre outs (on the Fusion) really made for a super compelling product. Most budget receivers these days have a few bells and whistles built in (Apple air play, Spotify streaming, etc.) but really suffer from a SQ standpoint. Quite a few people I know would rather forego some of those features for better sound quality, but they aren't ready to drop $700-$800 (or more!) for a better receiver. It's also hard to talk a friend looking to spend $300 on a receiver into something that costs up near $1k.
Reading through some of Emotiva's literature regarding their intention for the BasX line of products, it basically seems like they are trying to allow people to get their hands on audiophile products for the least possible cost. Currently, for someone looking to put together a 5.1 system (not even 7.1 capable), they would have to buy an MC-700 and an A-500 amp, which is $1200 when not on sale! Good luck talking your buddy wanting to spend $300 on a receiver into something four times the price! Humbly, I suggest that Emotiva needs to have an entry level receiver available for folks.
I'd love to see Emotiva make another receiver for under $500 that:
- Has at least four commercial 4k inputs and 1 4k output
- Has at least 50 watts across 7 channels
- Has excellent sound quality
- Has a built in PEQ for at least the subwoofer with at least 5 bands of adjustment
And if they can:
- Pre outs would be a wonderful addition, but not strictly necessary if it helps keep costs significantly down (maybe pre outs for at least the front three channels?)
- Have built in bluetooth
- USB Audio Streaming from a computer
- USB Firmware updates
- Have an option to add in Dirac for extra cost if desired
It would be really nice to have a "go to" product for my friends and family that are looking to build a system, and I'd like that product to be from Emotiva!
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Post by brutiarti on Jan 10, 2017 19:40:54 GMT -5
I asked emotiva a couple of months ago if they had plans to put out a Fusion 8100 replacement, but they said no. Maybe they will change their mind in the future
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Post by jcisbig on Jan 10, 2017 19:47:52 GMT -5
Let's hope they change their minds! We just need something BasIc that gets the job done well!
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Post by Loop 7 on Jan 10, 2017 19:56:11 GMT -5
Yes.
Because they should take this BasX concept to the logical end by creating a small form factor AVR. But, if there's no chance it would sell, they should not waste effort on it.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Jan 10, 2017 20:37:21 GMT -5
My vote == "No" :
It think the competitive landscape in Audio/Visual Receivers is just too nasty. There are tons of very cheap AVRs out there. Granted, none of them are very good, but the people who are going to Emotiva are going for "Audiophilia on the Cheap". And I think any one of them would want separates. Emotiva tried an AVR with the DMR-1 which as a fabulous little unit which essentially married the DMC-1 to an amplifier and I believe they lost money on it, despite how nice it was.
Casey
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 10, 2017 20:46:39 GMT -5
Just get a Pioneer. Market is congested with options. I voted no, however I would be interested in something pretty simple even with 5 channels of amplification and cheaper than my Trusty Pioneer.
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Post by Loop 7 on Jan 10, 2017 20:59:33 GMT -5
My vote == "No" : It think the competitive landscape in Audio/Visual Receivers is just too nasty. There are tons of very cheap AVRs out there. Granted, none of them are very good, but the people who are going to Emotiva are going for "Audiophilia on the Cheap". And I think any one of them would want separates. They tried an AVR with the DMR-1 which as a fabulous little unit which essentially married the DMC-1 to an amplifier and I believe they lost money on it, despite how nice it was. Casey That's a tough point to argue. I may rescind my previous stance. |
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Post by jcisbig on Jan 10, 2017 23:56:39 GMT -5
My vote == "No" : It think the competitive landscape in Audio/Visual Receivers is just too nasty. There are tons of very cheap AVRs out there. Granted, none of them are very good, but the people who are going to Emotiva are going for "Audiophilia on the Cheap". And I think any one of them would want separates. Emotiva tried an AVR with the DMR-1 which as a fabulous little unit which essentially married the DMC-1 to an amplifier and I believe they lost money on it, despite how nice it was. Casey I agree with you that there is a lot of nasty competition in the "budget receiver" category as just about every electronics company has something to offer in that range. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I feel I must disagree, or at least alter, your next point. Yes, many who look at Emotiva I'm sure WANT separates, but that doesn't mean that they will be able to afford them. As I said in my first post, it's $1200 to get going with a BasX pre/pro (MC700) and a 5 channel amp! How does that even come close to being a valid option for folks who are trying to work with a "budget receiver" price range? I have family members that really appreciate my system but wouldn't spend any where close to the kind of money that I've got in my system. What they will do is spend a few hundred dollars for a quality receiver, and that's exactly what they've done. My dad's got a Sherbourn 8100 that he picked up when they went on sale for $500 or so a few years back. My brother bought a used 8100 a few months ago. I put together a system for a friend of mine a few years ago when the Fusion was around for $500 and I was able to talk him into spending a little bit more than he wanted to on it because of its great sound quality and PEQ functionality. So yes, they may WANT separates, but they can't afford them or won't spend the money on them. If Emotiva produced a BasX receiver for around $500, it would be a very compelling option for people. Make it part of the BasX line and maybe even strip it down a little from previous receivers like the Fusion. Maybe it doesn't have a 2nd zone capability. Maybe it doesn't have pre outs. Maybe it doesn't have bluetooth built in. Maybe it's only got one digital (optical/coax) in and two pairs of analog RCA ins. But make a nice little unit that will do 4k, is 7.1, have great sound quality, and a PEQ for the sub. Those four things alone make that a very interesting option and, for people like me that have the opportunity to recommend products to people a lot, it gives me a really good budget option for people that don't have a lot to spend. As the market is right now, I have to steer people towards buying poor quality receivers unless they have a grand or more to spend on their electronics. I wish I could steer them straight to Emo and their $500 receiver like I did for my friend a few years back! You look at the new BasX subs that they just released. Those things are priced to compete at the VERY budget level subwoofer category, in which reside tens if not hundreds of subs. Surely there's some demand for a quality receiver as well in the "budget receiver" price range, even though there are tens/hundreds of available options there? How many people on a budget are going to spend a couple hundred on speakers, $250ish on a BasX sub, and then $1200 dollars on the electronics to drive them? That budget would be overly weighted on the electronics side of things I think. Maybe I'm wrong in all this, I don't know. I just know that I've loved every piece of Emotiva gear that I've owned or worked with and I wish there was a receiver at these entry level prices so that I could help spread the love to others who would appreciate it too but can't go all in for separates. That seems to be what the BasX line is aiming to accomplish. Help me understand, Dan Laufman! |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Jan 11, 2017 0:16:22 GMT -5
But the problem is that that $500 Audio/Video Receiver would have to compete against the marketing of all the currently in-place and well known companies in that space.
Worse yet, in order to be successful, you'd have to see a ton of them. Even granting that success, Emotiva would then be subject to The Law of Large Numbers. Say they sold 100,000 of these $500 AVRs. That means that whatever the per-unit failure rates were for various hardware/software subsystems would be multiplied by 100,000. Suddenly, in order to prevent a catastrophic Customer Relations Meltdown, you now need a much larger Quality Assurance effort in order to make the product Bullet Proof. And then you also need wildly better User Documentation designed to be consumed by someone who just wants to plug it in and have it work ... So a whole department of Tech Writers are needed.
Scaling up into new Market Segments is hard and a lot of thought needs to go into the first, second, and Nth step of the process.
In the end of the day, it really comes down to what kind of company Emotiva wants to be. If they want to head into the Consumer Space and be a big player there, then an AVR does make a lot of sense as one of the possible moves in that direction. But it would take a lot bigger company than what Emotiva is today. On the other hand, if Emotiva likes where they are now in terms of scale and size, then an AVR turns into a sort of boutique product for customers who may not match their current customer base. And if they're not going to sell 100,000 of them, then getting enough profit out of $500 for and AVR might be extremely difficult ...
I'm not saying that any of this would be impossible. I'm just saying that my Risk Assessment "Spidey Sense" is tingling ...
Casey
Casey
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Post by jcisbig on Jan 11, 2017 0:23:27 GMT -5
Well said Casey. I definitely don't have much of a head for Business and all the decisions that go into product design, production, launch, support, etc. The reason that the Fusion 8100 doesn't exist any more is probably because it wasn't profitable overall. With these new BasX products, and the focus on simplicity for the end user, I guess I was just hoping to see a comeback of Emotiva Receivers. : )
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Post by teaman on Jan 11, 2017 0:31:10 GMT -5
I wish Big Dan would stumble upon another warehouse of Sherbourn gear, new in boxes. That was the deal of the century and I sure wish my brain would have functioned properly where I would have stocked up. I now own four Sherbourn SR-120 receivers and two PT-7020C4 pre/pros partnered with Emotiva XPA-2 and XPA-5 amps. To be honest the separates do not show up these receivers at all. I absolutely love them.
Almost everyone that bought the 8100 receivers, whether they were Emotiva or Sherbourn seemed to enjoy those receivers as well. I think the Emotiva Fusion 8100 sold for less than $500.
I would think Emotiva could get a fairly basic 8100 style receiver with a bump in power for the front three...sort of like the SR-120 that offered 125 wpc across the front and 75 wpc for the remaining four channels. I don't think a basic receiver would need Atmos, Dirac or anything more than the Emo-Q. I agree with the OP this would be an easy piece of gear to talk friends into that don't know much about A/V gear or don't want to break the bank. If Emotiva could put something out in the $700 range it at be a hit...but I doubt they will.
Tim
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Post by jcisbig on Jan 11, 2017 0:37:02 GMT -5
I never had great results with EmoQ, and I tried it with both the UMC-1 and UMC-200 in about 5 different rooms and setups as well. Took REW measurements before and after and didn't really notice an appreciable difference (measured or subjective). If the new Budget Emo receiver didn't even have EmoQ built in, it wouldn't bother me at all. The PEQ on the sub has provided the biggest positive change to my audio over the years, until earlier today when I ran Dirac on my new-to-me XMC. Dirac is AWESOME I must say! But anyway, put a PEW on the sub channel and don't worry about implementing EmoQ with the BasX Receiver and we'd be good to go!
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Post by niuguy on Jan 11, 2017 0:37:38 GMT -5
If Emotiva sells a receiver you're looking at the capabilities of the MC-700. That runs 599. Now you need an amp. Lets say it's a weaker version of the A-700 which is 600.
Now you're talking about a $500 receiver?? WHAT? You're basically asking Emotiva to create a product that violates all their principles which is affordable audiophile. You're asking them to create a cheap lightweight receiver with lightweight amps and power supplies. Think about it.
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Post by teaman on Jan 11, 2017 0:39:42 GMT -5
If Emotiva sells a receiver you're looking at the capabilities of the MC-700. That runs 599. Now you need an amp. Lets say it's a weaker version of the A-700 which is 600. Now you're talking about a $500 receiver?? WHAT? You're basically asking Emotiva to create a product that violates all their principles which is affordable audiophile. You're asking them to create a cheap lightweight receiver with lightweight amps and power supplies. Think about it. They have done it in the past. I mean the new PT-100 is basically a stereo receiver. The realistic approach to a multi channel may not be far from that mark, and that one sells for $253. |
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Post by novisnick on Jan 11, 2017 1:13:18 GMT -5
If Emotiva sells a receiver you're looking at the capabilities of the MC-700. That runs 599. Now you need an amp. Lets say it's a weaker version of the A-700 which is 600. Now you're talking about a $500 receiver?? WHAT? You're basically asking Emotiva to create a product that violates all their principles which is affordable audiophile. You're asking them to create a cheap lightweight receiver with lightweight amps and power supplies. Think about it. They have done it in the past. I mean the new PT-100 is basically a stereo receiver. The realistic approach to a multi channel may not be far from that mark, and that one sells for $253. TA-100 is basically a stereo receiver, it has 50 wpc and costs $339. On sale. The PT-100 would be classified as a preamp. Just wanted to set the record straight. I've interchanged the name on many occasions.  |
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Post by jcisbig on Jan 11, 2017 1:14:46 GMT -5
If Emotiva sells a receiver you're looking at the capabilities of the MC-700. That runs 599. Now you need an amp. Lets say it's a weaker version of the A-700 which is 600. Now you're talking about a $500 receiver?? WHAT? You're basically asking Emotiva to create a product that violates all their principles which is affordable audiophile. You're asking them to create a cheap lightweight receiver with lightweight amps and power supplies. Think about it. They have done it in the past. I mean the new PT-100 is basically a stereo receiver. The realistic approach to a multi channel may not be far from that mark, and that one sells for $253. I would not expect the Emo Receiver to have the same features or inputs as the MC 700, I'm assuming it would be more limited as I've mentioned in posts above. Of course, I wouldn't want them to sacrifice their brand or their design principles and I don't think I'm asking them to with the things I've listed in previous posts. A user-friendly receiver with fewer inputs/options than the MC 700 (no zone 2, no EmoQ, no bluetooth, etc.) can still have good build quality, sound quality, quality amplification (like their Mini-X amp @ 50 watts/ch), and a PEQ which wouldn't be compromising anything that they stand for. The Emo Receiver may end up being very basic without a lot of bells and whistles, but if they can get good sound quality and some of the key features into it, I can think of many folks that would choose it over a $300 receiver from one of the major brands. There would of course be some compromises with an Emo Receiver under $500, but look at the BasX subs and tell me that there's no compromises with those products. I think the folks at Emotiva can work some magic and come up with a receiver that meets the needs of the segment, at a good price, without compromising what makes it an "Emotiva" product. |
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Post by niuguy on Jan 11, 2017 1:15:36 GMT -5
If Emotiva sells a receiver you're looking at the capabilities of the MC-700. That runs 599. Now you need an amp. Lets say it's a weaker version of the A-700 which is 600. Now you're talking about a $500 receiver?? WHAT? You're basically asking Emotiva to create a product that violates all their principles which is affordable audiophile. You're asking them to create a cheap lightweight receiver with lightweight amps and power supplies. Think about it. They have done it in the past. I mean the new PT-100 is basically a stereo receiver. The realistic approach to a multi channel may not be far from that mark, and that one sells for $253. Sure, but we're now talking 5 more channels of amplification, a half dozen HDMI 2.0a/b sources, and audio processing (with room correction). How does it offer all of that, at Emotiva standards, and not make the MC-700 look silly? How does it keep the same build standards? |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Jan 11, 2017 1:23:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I have to agree with niuguy's analysis. An Audio/Video Receiver would basically be the functions of the MC-700 ($599) + the A-700 ($599). You could shave off a tiny amount and only offer a 5.1 system but that wouldn't really cut that much out. You'd probably save more from having a single cabinet and not having to have all the pre-out/amp-in connectors. And then you might get to ~$800-1,000 with a product which wouldn't compete on a features basis with some really cheap AVRs floating around out there. Sure, it would sound better, but it's not clear to me that people scrimping for a few hundred dollars would be interested in that. They probably just want loud explosions. And it's likely that they'll just be putting up a Sound Bar in any case ... I remain skeptical. But I'm listening. Casey |
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Post by teaman on Jan 11, 2017 1:26:46 GMT -5
They have done it in the past. I mean the new PT-100 is basically a stereo receiver. The realistic approach to a multi channel may not be far from that mark, and that one sells for $253. TA-100 is basically a stereo receiver, it has 50 wpc and costs $339. On sale. The PT-100 would be classified as a preamp. Just wanted to set the record straight. I've interchanged the name on many occasions. Crap, thanks Nick. I linked the wrong one! Tim |
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Post by jcisbig on Jan 11, 2017 1:31:17 GMT -5
Yeah, I have to agree with niuguy's analysis. An Audio/Video Receiver would basically be the functions of the MC-700 ($599) + the A-700 ($599). You could shave off a tiny amount and only offer a 5.1 system but that wouldn't really cut that much out. You'd probably save more from having a single cabinet and not having to have all the pre-out/amp-in connectors. And then you might get to ~$800-1,000 with a product which wouldn't compete on a features basis with some really cheap AVRs floating around out there. Sure, it would sound better, but it's not clear to me that people scrimping for a few hundred dollars would be interested in that. They probably just want loud explosions. And it's likely that they'll just be putting up a Sound Bar in any case ... I remain skeptical. But I'm listening. Casey Yep, you may be 100% right. But IF Emo were able to make something, somehow, for $500 or less I do think it will still be a compelling option for many folks. Many of my friends who are looking to put together a system would go for something like an Emo Receiver for just a little bit more money than a budget receiver. A lot of folks don't care so much about the bells and whistles inside the receiver since a lot of blu ray players, tvs, PCs, etc. will do a lot of those things for them already. Many of them want good sound quality without having to spend $1k to get it. Show them a $500 receiver and there's a good chance they'd go for it. But you're right, an Emo Receiver that's $700+ would be a really tough sell for a lot of the budget folks. |
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