The speaker I wish I could buy from Emotiva

[Deleted]

So many speakers built today are trying to be duel purpose- theater & music. packed into a slender cabinet.and need a sub.
If you want good 2-ch, get speakers designed for full range (BIG woofers) 3-way minimum,.without theater size limitations or sub required. My opinion.

[klinemj]

Feb 22, 2019 18:28:22 GMT -5 Bonzo said:

This conversation always goes off in 2 camps. The only big issue I have with it is that the anti-built-in-sub people almost never acknowledge the MANY advantages to having built in subs, especially for music. I have seen the comparisons, and for every advantage there may be going with separate subs, there is an equal advantage to going with built ins. From what I've seen and read, the built-in list of advantages is longer and has some stronger points. But to each their own.

Me, I've ran my Def Techs alone for years now. But last fall I got a HSU sub (which has yet to be hooked up). Once it is, I can experiment to my hearts content. But the basic idea is to use my mains with speaker wire only as full range for music, with no HSU. For movies, I will run 1 set of sub wires to the back of the speakers, and one sub wire to the HSU. This way I can adjust them independently if needed or wanted. For TV, I'm going to wait and see, but I could even do something in-between. And each setting will change with each input selected, so once set, I can forget.

The only speakers I have ever heard with built-in powered subs were Martin Logan and Goldenear, each at Audible Elegance here in Cinci when I was looking for new FR/FL to replace my Paradigms. I chose my Maggies over every option they had in house. Was it specifically because of a negative that powered subs the Goldenear and Martin Logan's had? Not really - I just liked the overall sound of the Maggies best though the upper and mids. And, with an external sub, I can go as low or lower than the alternatives (I got a dual 15" Rythmik servo drive sub...love it). So, I can get the best of the upper/mids with the best of bass. Add to it that the Rythmik is a massive hunk of wood and it impresses all who behold it.

Mark

[Bonzo]

Feb 23, 2019 13:10:40 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Feb 22, 2019 18:28:22 GMT -5 Bonzo said:

This conversation always goes off in 2 camps. The only big issue I have with it is that the anti-built-in-sub people almost never acknowledge the MANY advantages to having built in subs, especially for music. I have seen the comparisons, and for every advantage there may be going with separate subs, there is an equal advantage to going with built ins. From what I've seen and read, the built-in list of advantages is longer and has some stronger points. But to each their own.

Me, I've ran my Def Techs alone for years now. But last fall I got a HSU sub (which has yet to be hooked up). Once it is, I can experiment to my hearts content. But the basic idea is to use my mains with speaker wire only as full range for music, with no HSU. For movies, I will run 1 set of sub wires to the back of the speakers, and one sub wire to the HSU. This way I can adjust them independently if needed or wanted. For TV, I'm going to wait and see, but I could even do something in-between. And each setting will change with each input selected, so once set, I can forget.

The only speakers I have ever heard with built-in powered subs were Martin Logan and Goldenear, each at Audible Elegance here in Cinci when I was looking for new FR/FL to replace my Paradigms. I chose my Maggies over every option they had in house. Was it specifically because of a negative that powered subs the Goldenear and Martin Logan's had? Not really - I just liked the overall sound of the Maggies best though the upper and mids. And, with an external sub, I can go as low or lower than the alternatives (I got a dual 15" Rythmik servo drive sub...love it). So, I can get the best of the upper/mids with the best of bass. Add to it that the Rythmik is a massive hunk of wood and it impresses all who behold it.

Mark

I can easily see why you chose Maggies over others brands, any other brands for that matter. They have a very unique sound that can be amazingly pleasing. In that regard, its a "sound" thing. Some people think Paradigms are the best sounding speaker. Others Klipsch. The list can go on and on. But I don't think you chosing Maggies has anything to do with them being superior to speakers with built in subs specifically.

As for Maggies specifically, IF I were able to have a dedicated 2 channel room, for music only, I would probably buy Maggie 3.7s and a good sub and be done. (Lottery winning it would be Wilson speakers). But I don't have a 2 channel only room. My room is a multi-purpose room where most of the time is spent watching TV and movies anymore. With no offense intended, I don't think Maggies suit home theater applications well, not to mention my room and our uses here. They are too finicky about placement, need to be farther away from the wall than I can provide, they are extremely wide, the sound is too pin pointy (small sweet spot), and they don't have the strongest dynamics. They simply aren't the right fit, that's all.

But back to the built-in conversation. As I said before, 2 camps, and its as strong as Rep vs Dem. Almost opposite opinions. I guess I look at it like this, using this forum as a reference. It seems everyone here is always talking about bass and how some new equipment purchase helps the bass. Bass bass bass bass bass. Well, with my speakers, I have no need to worry about that. They are basically full range (for 99.9% of music) and are integrated 100% seamlessly to the higher frequencies. Why does everyone look at them as speakers with built in subs? Why not just look at them as full range speakers, because that's essentially what they are (with the added bonus of being able to dial in the base). Full range stereo speakers. And with my speakers, I have the option to use them alone, with bass turned up or turned down (as said by another poster, anyone actually physically diconecting them is an idiot) or turned to balanced (as I have them), AND add a separate sub-woofer to kick super low during movie watching. Its a win win situation for my purposes.

Like I said before, yep, there are advantages to using passive speakers with a separate sub, BUT, there are just as many (if not more) advantages to using speakers with built ins. The problem I have is that the people against built ins can't seem to admit it, or they are just too stubborn to admit it. People who like built ins seem to understand both sides of the coin. The truth is everyone's room and needs are different. There are uses for both applications. But to just say speakers with built ins are inferior is completely bogus.

[monkumonku]

Remember back in the day when there weren't any subwoofers. Speakers were "full range" and came with large woofers to handle the bass.

Now that we have subs, a really really really really really really big deal is made over ensuring they are located in the proper place in the room. That's why people do the sub crawl, take extensive measurements, talk about moving the sub an inch here or an inch there, analyzing formulas about standing waves, etc. to make sure the sub(s) is in the optimal position.

So on one hand if sub placement is so critical, then it isn't logical that a speaker should have a built-in sub because maybe the best place for the mids/highs isn't the best for the lows. But on the other hand, there are plenty of people who are happy with the sound of their full range speakers, including ones with built in subs.

Myself, I used to have OMD-28's, towers that each had two 8" woofers. They sounded great but I still used a sub because the position for the speakers in the room was horrible for the bass notes. In that case I wasn't getting the full enjoyment from the speakers that I should have, because of the room.

I think there's arguments for both sides and it all boils down to what sounds best to you. That said, there's going to be folks who just can't let it go and they'll drive Andrew Robinson back into hiding again.

[klinemj]

My larger point was not that the Maggies are great. It's that I've not heard any speakers with built-ins that I really liked (and were reasonably priced...Legacy has a lot of options, but the starting point is pretty high vs. Boom's stated range). I actually didn't like the sound of the Goldenears or Martin Logans. So, whatever advantages there might be for a built-in, neither of those brands (and I listened to a couple options of each) did it for me.

Mark

[Bonzo]

Feb 23, 2019 14:25:02 GMT -5 klinemj said:

My larger point was not that the Maggies are great. It's that I've not heard any speakers with built-ins that I really liked (and were reasonably priced...Legacy has a lot of options, but the starting point is pretty high vs. Boom's stated range). I actually didn't like the sound of the Goldenears or Martin Logans. So, whatever advantages there might be for a built-in, neither of those brands (and I listened to a couple options of each) did it for me.

Mark

Completely understood. There are plenty of people who dislike or even hate the Def Techs I have. And vice versa. Everyone hears differently. Speakers are largely a matter of taste vs which is "best." They are very personal.

[DYohn]

A full-range loudspeaker, including one that employs a subwoofer driver, and a "speaker with a sub built into it" are two very different things. The full-range speaker is designed to produce 20-20KHz with authority from the main stereo feed of a 2-channel system. A speaker with a sub in it is designed to accept the LFE signal from a home theater processor. Two different applications - and designs that try to do both generally fail. I have no issues with a full-range system that employs a sub driver. Indeed, I've designed and built hundreds of them, and I actually prefer 4-way systems of that sort. Trying to incorporate the LFE channel in a static setup (especially if the sub drivers are on the side, Gallo and GE) can be a problematic installation unless you have a perfect room.

IMO, YMMV, and you can't always get what you want.

[annjones13]

[
That being the case, my "plan B" for an Emotiva "Flagship Airmotiv" speaker would be one with an anechoic -3dB bass knee of maybe 25-30 Hz. in a passive cabinet. This is also a difficult design, but other companies have done it (Jim Thiel with his CS-7i, KEF Blades, and some of the Legacy models). Considering the larger cabinet and larger drivers required, however, the self-powered sub might be the less-expensive option.

But since this is all academic speculation anyway, I can wish for whatever I choose! [/quote]


Guys,

Since we all get to express an opinion on this thread, I would like to share mine. If only $.01 cents worth.

First off, My hearing is compromised to the point of probably needing a cohlear implant, but music has been important all my life. I have owned many different speakers over the last 50 years. My finances have always been limited, so my first NEW speakers were Snell KII in 1990 (book shelf sealed 2/way). They were lovely - with a sub. Upon getting a projector, I moved up to Klipch F3 towers & surrounds. Good for movies, music ,not so much. Then upgrade to NHT 2.9 w/ side 10" subs... Nice, but I still loved the sealed Snells. So, next upgrade was.to Snell B Minor towers w/12" side subs.. Then I added an Aerial Accoustics center - wow - so now I wanted to step up to Aerial 10T L/R. But a decent used set was $2k.
So this last fall, I built a DIY set of Statement Monitor 3/ways over SB Acoustics 10" base bins. I think they are very close to the Aerial 10t that I lusted,after. Bonus is I love woodworking. So now I'm hooked and trying to find a reason to try other designs. My SO is questioning why I have all these speakers here and there that are not hooked up??
The bottom line for me seems to be a small manufactuer with a really skilled designer using high quality drivers. Translation >>> the best you can afford for your ears. Now my question is how will it sound thru an electronic implant....... Currently I have to ask a sound engineer friend if they sound good.
What a fun hobby!!
Ann

Oh, I also have an 18" sub for LFE

[annjones13]

[
That being the case, my "plan B" for an Emotiva "Flagship Airmotiv" speaker would be one with an anechoic -3dB bass knee of maybe 25-30 Hz. in a passive cabinet. This is also a difficult design, but other companies have done it (Jim Thiel with his CS-7i, KEF Blades, and some of the Legacy models). Considering the larger cabinet and larger drivers required, however, the self-powered sub might be the less-expensive option.

But since this is all academic speculation anyway, I can wish for whatever I choose! [/quote]


Guys,

Since we all get to express an opinion on this thread, I would like to share mine. If only $.01 cents worth.

First off, My hearing is compromised to the point of probably needing a cohlear implant, but music has been important all my life. I have owned many different speakers over the last 50 years. My finances have always been limited, so my first NEW speakers were Snell KII in 1990 (book shelf sealed 2/way). They were lovely - with a sub. Upon getting a projector, I moved up to Klipch F3 towers & surrounds. Good for movies, music ,not so much. Then upgrade to NHT 2.9 w/ side 10" subs... Nice, but I still loved the sealed Snells. So, next upgrade was.to Snell B Minor towers w/12" side subs..
Then I added an Aerial Accoustics center - wow - so now I wanted to step up to Aerial 10T L/R. But a decent used set was $2k.
So this last fall, I built a DIY set of Statement Monitor 3/ways over SB Acoustics 10" base bins. I think they are very close to the Aerial 10t that I lusted,after. Bonus is I love woodworking. So now I'm hooked and trying to find a reason to try other designs. My SO is questioning why I have all these speakers here and there, that are not hooked up??
The bottom line for me seems to be a small manufactuer with a really skilled designer using high quality drivers. Translation >>> the best you can afford for your ears. Now my question is how will it sound thru an electronic implant....... Currently I have to ask a sound engineer friend if they sound good.
What a fun hobby!!
Ann

[klinemj]

Feb 23, 2019 14:52:39 GMT -5 Bonzo said:

Feb 23, 2019 14:25:02 GMT -5 klinemj said:

My larger point was not that the Maggies are great. It's that I've not heard any speakers with built-ins that I really liked (and were reasonably priced...Legacy has a lot of options, but the starting point is pretty high vs. Boom's stated range). I actually didn't like the sound of the Goldenears or Martin Logans. So, whatever advantages there might be for a built-in, neither of those brands (and I listened to a couple options of each) did it for me.

Mark

Completely understood. There are plenty of people who dislike or even hate the Def Techs I have. And vice versa. Everyone hears differently. Speakers are largely a matter of taste vs which is "best." They are very personal.

I didn't realize Def Tech made speakers with powered subs. I do love my outdoor Def Techs.

Mark

[Loop 7]

Feb 23, 2019 10:33:14 GMT -5 jackfish said:

Or one could just get the Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II.

Which I think would make just about anyone more than happy.

[monkumonku]

Feb 23, 2019 18:40:28 GMT -5 annjones13 said:

Guys,

Since we all get to express an opinion on this thread, I would like to share mine. If only $.01 cents worth.

First off, My hearing is compromised to the point of probably needing a cohlear implant, but music has been important all my life. I have owned many different speakers over the last 50 years. My finances have always been limited, so my first NEW speakers were Snell KII in 1990 (book shelf sealed 2/way). They were lovely - with a sub. Upon getting a projector, I moved up to Klipch F3 towers & surrounds. Good for movies, music ,not so much. Then upgrade to NHT 2.9 w/ side 10" subs... Nice, but I still loved the sealed Snells. So, next upgrade was.to Snell B Minor towers w/12" side subs.. Then I added an Aerial Accoustics center - wow - so now I wanted to step up to Aerial 10T L/R. But a decent used set was $2k.
So this last fall, I built a DIY set of Statement Monitor 3/ways over SB Acoustics 10" base bins. I think they are very close to the Aerial 10t that I lusted,after. Bonus is I love woodworking. So now I'm hooked and trying to find a reason to try other designs. My SO is questioning why I have all these speakers here and there that are not hooked up??
The bottom line for me seems to be a small manufactuer with a really skilled designer using high quality drivers. Translation >>> the best you can afford for your ears. Now my question is how will it sound thru an electronic implant....... Currently I have to ask a sound engineer friend if they sound good.
What a fun hobby!!
Ann

Oh, I also have an 18" sub for LFE

Well even if your hearing is compromised, as long as your sense of touch is okay then I'm sure you can fully appreciate that 18" sub!

[tomincle]

I'm going on 55 years old and when passive subwoofers were explained to me that bass is non-directional meaning the subwoofer
itself can be placed anywhere in the room, I can't help but have surprise when I read that subwoofer placement is just as crucial
as placing towers or satellites. Is the reason for optimal placement of a sub because home theatre bass is set to be dominant where a sub for a 2.1
system is only meant to complete and enhance the overall sound ?

[novisnick]

Feb 23, 2019 22:51:41 GMT -5 tomincle said:

I'm going on 55 years old and when passive subwoofers were explained to me that bass is non-directional meaning the subwoofer
itself can be placed anywhere in the room, I can't help but have surprise when I read that subwoofer placement is just as crucial
as placing towers or satellites. Is the reason for optimal placement of a sub because home theatre bass is set to be dominant where a sub for a 2.1
system is only meant to complete and enhance the overall sound ?

Placement of subwoofers is critical due to the extremely long wave length of the lower frequencies. Their length makes it very easy to be sitting in a null where you won’t experience or hear the sound or feel the percussion.

[klinemj]

tomincle

Building on what Nick said...you are correct that low frequency sound is not directional. However, "room effects" - reflections of the waves within a room - can cause boomy sounds or nulls. That's why you might read a lot about bass traps. Some (me included) do a "sub crawl" - walking around the room with a soundmeter to check dB level of bass around the room. The right placement of the sub + bass traps will help ensure an even dB level all around the room.

Mark

[DYohn]

Yes. Sub-woofer placement is important not due to the direct sound from the speaker but due to what your room does to those sound waves. Google "standing waves" and "room modes."

[DYohn]

So Boomzilla, besides full-range frequency response and cabinet finish, what other loudspeaker criteria would tick your boxes? Size? Shape? Efficiency? Driver components (like horns VS dynamic drivers)? Omni-directional, open baffle, cardiod? Architectural (in-wall)?

Let's design it.

[Bonzo]

Feb 23, 2019 19:36:39 GMT -5 klinemj said:

I didn't realize Def Tech made speakers with powered subs. I do love my outdoor Def Techs.

Mark

Wow, that's surprising. I think Def Tech is probably the most famous company for using them. Golden Ear comes second as they are Sandy Gross' newer company.

As for the newer models, I've not listened to them, because I seriously doubt they sound better than mine. Def Tech has scaled back their home speaker sizes and the amount of bipolar usage, which seems like going backwards to me. I think its more about selling speakers now more than just making the best they can. They are making more WAF speakers. I have heard the Golden Ear Triton 2s, and while they sounded really nice, I like my old BP7001SCs better.

[klinemj]

Feb 24, 2019 14:12:41 GMT -5 Bonzo said:

Feb 23, 2019 19:36:39 GMT -5 klinemj said:

I didn't realize Def Tech made speakers with powered subs. I do love my outdoor Def Techs.

Mark

Wow, that's surprising. I think Def Tech is probably the most famous company for using them. Golden Ear comes second as they are Sandy Gross' newer company.

As for the newer models, I've not listened to them, because I seriously doubt they sound better than mine. Def Tech has scaled back their home speaker sizes and the amount of bipolar usage, which seems like going backwards to me. I think its more about selling speakers now more than just making the best they can. They are making more WAF speakers. I have heard the Golden Ear Triton 2s, and while they sounded really nice, I like my old BP7001SCs better.

There are so many brands of speakers out there that it's hard to keep up with "who has what". Once one knows what a company offers, their lineups make sense. But, until someone looks at them in earnest, they don't know what they don't know. And, the last 2 times I was in the market for speakers, Def Tech never made my radar screen. They only made my radar screen when I was looking for speakers for me deck and pool. I bought some speakers I didn't like and returned them. Then, I found Def Tech had options and loved their sound, so I bought them. But, at that point, I had what I needed for inside so I didn't look at their indoor speakers.

Mark

[Boomzilla]

Feb 24, 2019 11:47:16 GMT -5 DYohn said:

So Boomzilla, besides full-range frequency response and cabinet finish, what other loudspeaker criteria would tick your boxes? Size? Shape? Efficiency? Driver components (like horns VS dynamic drivers)? Omni-directional, open baffle, cardiod? Architectural (in-wall)?

Let's design it.

LOL - not an easy task!

If I could create one as maybe a DIY, I might look for the following:

Size - Don't much care - but to get the other things I want, I'm expecting LARGE

Shape - Again - Don't much care - the results dictate the shape

Efficiency - High 90s to Low 100s with an 8-ohm impedance

Components - I'm honestly thinking I won't get where I want to go with less than a 4 or 5-way system. Serious cone area for the low bass (one or two 12 or 15 inch drivers per side). Lower midrange - Either multiple direct-radiating 8s or the mother of all big horns - probably the former. Upper midrange - I want the efficiency of a horn, but without the horn coloration. I'm honestly thinking of 2 or more big (1.5") domes and maybe even an extra one pointing toward the rear. Treble - I think that folded ribbon tweeters (ala Emotiva's Airmotiv line) have arrived technically and would be fine. Supertweeter (depending on the extension of the ribbons) - whatever gets the job done.

I'd actually have no objection to an open baffle, but to get the bass without "wraparound cancellation," I'm pretty sure I'd have to go sealed or ported in the bass there.

One of the best-sounding DIYs I've yet heard was a bud who built a big bass cabinet for an Altec 15" driver per side. His midrange was three or four 3.5" drivers in a common enclosure with one facing forward, two facing front at 45-degree angles to the forward-firing one, and maybe a rear-firing one. I don't remember what he used for tweeters, but he again had the identical geometry (with maybe a rear-firing one too) as the midranges. His tweeter were Piezo-electric tweeters per the old Dahlquist DQ-10a speakers with (again) the same geometry for the three of them as the midrange. That speaker had it all - low bass extension, clear and articulate higher frequencies, 8-ohm impedance, high-sensitivity, and as much "air" as you wanted.

OTOH, a true omnidirectional would also be fun.

The only thing I can definitely rule out would be in-wall.