The speaker I wish I could buy from Emotiva

[Boomzilla]

Although I consider Emotiva primarily an electronics company, I must also consider them a successful speaker company. The Emotiva Airmotiv passive speaker line in particular, including the universally hailed T1 and their larger-room T2 models have been and remain both reviewer favorites and commercial successes. If I had to consider a speaker purchase in the immediate future, the Emotiva Airmotiv line would be high on my list of contenders.

Yet despite my appreciation for the Emotiva Airmotiv passive speaker line, I've never quite cottoned to their active Stealth series, despite having heard or owned several of the models. Part of this is my personal penchant for preferring to choose my own power amplifiers.

Which brings me to what I miss about the Emotiva speaker lineup. The Airmotiv line lacks a "statement" product. Although the Airmotivs are marvels for their acoustics, they have obviously been somewhat "built to a price point." This shows in their black vinyl boxes, and in their somewhat lighter-weight construction. Great speakers for a darkened home theater room, perhaps, but somewhat dowdy-looking for living room use. And looks alone are not their only shortcoming. Those of us who desire true LOW bass are not well served by either the bass roll-off points of the Airmotiv speakers or the Emotiva vented subwoofers, neither of which can plumb the depths as can some other equipment. Further, although the Airmotiv line offers at least reasonable sensitivity, their four-ohm nominal impedance limits their suitability for some lower-powered vacuum-tube amplifiers.

So if I could buy what I wanted in the way of an Emotiva speaker, what would I want? Now on the surface of it, let me say up front that my preferences actually don't matter. Yours are almost certainly different, and Emotiva has to produce products that they think they can sell - not those that individual Lounge members desire. So before you jump all over my wish list, saying how you don't care about some of the things that I do, how your preferences are different, and that I'm an idiot for wanting what I want - just feel free to start your own wish-list without criticizing mine. I'll respect your choices - please respect mine.

So the Emotiva speaker I'd like to buy would have some things not currently available from Emotiva. Among them:

1. A higher price. Yes - Emotiva makes one of the best $500 and $1,000 pairs of speakers that I've heard. How much more could they do at $2,000 or even $3,000 per pair? Now the "higher price" is most definitely a double-edged sword. They won't sell nearly as many pairs of speakers as at their current price points, so their profit margin per pair will probably be lower. The competition is much stiffer at those higher price ranges, but Emotiva didn't let that stand in their way with their current Airmotiv line... But on the positive side, the higher price points might allow for better quality cabinets, drivers, crossovers, and finishes. It might also allow for the next feature that I'd like:

2. A built-in subwoofer. Currently, to get the lowest bass, one has to buy a four-box system (two satellites and two subwoofers). And even then, you won't get true bass much below 20 Hz. from Emotiva's current offerings. Systems using subwoofers face huge challenges for 2.2 use as opposed to home theater use. Electronic crossovers, at anything less than stratospheric prices, tend to leave indelible degradation on the high-pass feeds to the main speakers. Yes, the crossover CAN be done in the digital domain with a pair of Mini-DSPs or other devices without audible damage, but the average consumer doesn't want a DIY solution. And for stereo use, AVRs still lack the purity of the best high-end stereo components. But these problems can be overcome with clever engineering and a built in sub. Goldenear and Definitive Technology, to mention two, have created speakers with both built-in, truly-subsonic, self-powered subwoofers AND audiophile quality main speakers in the same cabinet. Emotiva can and should do the same. Now the purists will argue that the proper speaker location for the best imaging in a listening room is seldom the best position for the subwoofers, and the purists are right. But there's still a lot to be said for the convenience of an "integrated subwoofer" solution.

3. An attractive finish. Although black vinyl is ideal for HT use, those of us who must integrate loudspeakers into a multi-purpose room appreciate the option of a wood-look finish. And these days, high-quality vinyl is virtually indistinguishable from real wood yet still less expensive. A variety of "wood finish" options with a variety of grill-color options would go a long way to making Emotiva's speakers more attractive and versatile.

4. A higher impedance. An eight-ohm nominal impedance would allow the use of SET tube amplifiers and make AVRs far more happy. Additionally, I find that amps with switching power supplies generally sound better into higher-impedance speakers.

5. High sensitivity. This goes along with the higher impedance to make the speaker both more versatile for amplifier pairing and lower in distortion. To increase sensitivity without using horns, multiple drivers would probably be required. Keeping both high impedance and high sensitivity would almost certainly require custom drivers, but these days, all drivers are "custom" anyway, so it shouldn't be a major impediment.

So that's my wish-list. Big Dan?

[pedrocols]

Not a chance! Nothing wrong with wishful thinking...nevertheless.

[adaboy]

Feb 22, 2019 7:29:54 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Although I consider Emotiva primarily an electronics company, I must also consider them a successful speaker company. The Emotiva Airmotiv passive speaker line in particular, including the universally hailed T1 and their larger-room T2 models have been and remain both reviewer favorites and commercial successes. If I had to consider a speaker purchase in the immediate future, the Emotiva Airmotiv line would be high on my list of contenders.

Yet despite my appreciation for the Emotiva Airmotiv passive speaker line, I've never quite cottoned to their active Stealth series, despite having heard or owned several of the models. Part of this is my personal penchant for preferring to choose my own power amplifiers.

Which brings me to what I miss about the Emotiva speaker lineup. The Airmotiv line lacks a "statement" product. Although the Airmotivs are marvels for their acoustics, they have obviously been somewhat "built to a price point." This shows in their black vinyl boxes, and in their somewhat lighter-weight construction. Great speakers for a darkened home theater room, perhaps, but somewhat dowdy-looking for living room use. And looks alone are not their only shortcoming. Those of us who desire true LOW bass are not well served by either the bass roll-off points of the Airmotiv speakers or the Emotiva vented subwoofers, neither of which can plumb the depths as can some other equipment. Further, although the Airmotiv line offers at least reasonable sensitivity, their four-ohm nominal impedance limits their suitability for some lower-powered vacuum-tube amplifiers.

So if I could buy what I wanted in the way of an Emotiva speaker, what would I want? Now on the surface of it, let me say up front that my preferences actually don't matter. Yours are almost certainly different, and Emotiva has to produce products that they think they can sell - not those that individual Lounge members desire. So before you jump all over my wish list, saying how you don't care about some of the things that I do, how your preferences are different, and that I'm an idiot for wanting what I want - just feel free to start your own wish-list without criticizing mine. I'll respect your choices - please respect mine.

So the Emotiva speaker I'd like to buy would have some things not currently available from Emotiva. Among them:

1. A higher price. Yes - Emotiva makes one of the best $500 and $1,000 pairs of speakers that I've heard. How much more could they do at $2,000 or even $3,000 per pair? Now the "higher price" is most definitely a double-edged sword. They won't sell nearly as many pairs of speakers as at their current price points, so their profit margin per pair will probably be lower. The competition is much stiffer at those higher price ranges, but Emotiva didn't let that stand in their way with their current Airmotiv line... But on the positive side, the higher price points might allow for better quality cabinets, drivers, crossovers, and finishes. It might also allow for the next feature that I'd like:

2. A built-in subwoofer. Currently, to get the lowest bass, one has to buy a four-box system (two satellites and two subwoofers). And even then, you won't get true bass much below 20 Hz. from Emotiva's current offerings. Systems using subwoofers face huge challenges for 2.2 use as opposed to home theater use. Electronic crossovers, at anything less than stratospheric prices, tend to leave indelible degradation on the high-pass feeds to the main speakers. Yes, the crossover CAN be done in the digital domain with a pair of Mini-DSPs or other devices without audible damage, but the average consumer doesn't want a DIY solution. And for stereo use, AVRs still lack the purity of the best high-end stereo components. But these problems can be overcome with clever engineering and a built in sub. Goldenear and Definitive Technology, to mention two, have created speakers with both built-in, truly-subsonic, self-powered subwoofers AND audiophile quality main speakers in the same cabinet. Emotiva can and should do the same. Now the purists will argue that the proper speaker location for the best imaging in a listening room is seldom the best position for the subwoofers, and the purists are right. But there's still a lot to be said for the convenience of an "integrated subwoofer" solution.

3. An attractive finish. Although black vinyl is ideal for HT use, those of us who must integrate loudspeakers into a multi-purpose room appreciate the option of a wood-look finish. And these days, high-quality vinyl is virtually indistinguishable from real wood yet still less expensive. A variety of "wood finish" options with a variety of grill-color options would go a long way to making Emotiva's speakers more attractive and versatile.

4. A higher impedance. An eight-ohm nominal impedance would allow the use of SET tube amplifiers and make AVRs far more happy. Additionally, I find that amps with switching power supplies generally sound better into higher-impedance speakers.

5. High sensitivity. This goes along with the higher impedance to make the speaker both more versatile for amplifier pairing and lower in distortion. To increase sensitivity without using horns, multiple drivers would probably be required. Keeping both high impedance and high sensitivity would almost certainly require custom drivers, but these days, all drivers are "custom" anyway, so it shouldn't be a major impediment.

So that's my wish-list. Big Dan?

This plus...

An option for beautiful piano black.

And no more batman like angles! Straight lines or curves.

Please please please, consult or take suggestions from lounge members on the looks before production. Maybe even polls on a few design choices.

[DYohn]

You really don't want a built-in subwoofer. Trust me, unless your room is the perfect shape for them, they cause issues. I know of at least three people with Golden Ear Tritons who love the sound but hate the subs and two of them have disabled the built-n subs. And "Batman-like angles" are to help minimize enclosure edge diffraction distortion, and are generally a good thing. If you don't like the looks leave the grills on.

[selind40]

T1 & T2 , They are some ugly speakers...says the guy with a set or ERT 8.3's.....

[goldenear2]

Feb 22, 2019 10:06:51 GMT -5 DYohn said:

You really don't want a built-in subwoofer. Trust me, unless your room is the perfect shape for them, they cause issues. I know of at least three people with Golden Ear Tritons who love the sound but hate the subs and two of them have disabled the built-n subs. And "Batman-like angles" are to help minimize enclosure edge diffraction distortion, and are generally a good thing. If you don't like the looks leave the grills on.

No Disrespect but you don't know what you're talking about. I own Goldenear Triton Reference with built-in subs. Prior to that I had the Triton 2's for 5 years. Goldenear speakers are the finest speakers I've had the privilege of listening to in my house. The built-in sub is a God send. If you can remember, who are the persons who disconnected their Triton subs? I'd like to know. Only an idiot/twit/fool would disconnect the sub in an GEt Triton speaker.

[garbulky]

8 ohm impedance - unncessary. If one is buying a $2000 set of speakers you don't need to run this with AVRs. Tube amps, yes. But then you are talking about niche markets. Most speakers I see are 4 ohm or 6 ohm nominal nowdays. With most solid state power amps going 8 ohm impedance also decreases the power available though dampening factor is also reduced..

Built in subwoofer - no thanks. Then I have to worry about matching gain levels. Also then you have two different amps powering your two channel. Usually the subwoofer amp is some class D amp I know little about. I'd prefer either all active or all passive. Also most of the time built in subwoofer really means that you get more bass but not "below 20hz or even 20 hz" unless you are going for significantly bigger speakers.


Better looks, better finish - oh yeah!

[DYohn]

Feb 22, 2019 12:22:44 GMT -5 goldenear2 said:

Feb 22, 2019 10:06:51 GMT -5 DYohn said:

You really don't want a built-in subwoofer. Trust me, unless your room is the perfect shape for them, they cause issues. I know of at least three people with Golden Ear Tritons who love the sound but hate the subs and two of them have disabled the built-n subs. And "Batman-like angles" are to help minimize enclosure edge diffraction distortion, and are generally a good thing. If you don't like the looks leave the grills on.

No Disrespect but you don't know what you're talking about. I own Goldenear Triton Reference with built-in subs. Prior to that I had the Triton 2's for 5 years. Goldenear speakers are the finest speakers I've had the privilege of listening to in my house. The built-in sub is a God send. If you can remember, who are the persons who disconnected their Triton subs? I'd like to know. Only an idiot/twit/fool would disconnect the sub in an GEt Triton speaker.

Fanboys come in every flavor, of course. I shared my experience, care to share yours? And please refrain from calling people names, thanks.

[Boomzilla]

Feb 22, 2019 10:06:51 GMT -5 DYohn said:

You really don't want a built-in subwoofer. Trust me, unless your room is the perfect shape for them, they cause issues...

Absolutely true. However - When using independent subwoofers I'd wager that 90% (probably 99%) are not placed properly to minimize room interference issues. After all - there's no such thing as "avoiding " room interference issues in the bass. And with the ready availability of measuring microphones and parametric equalization (either manually applied, or through commercial algorithms such as DIRAC, Audyssey, YPAO, etc.) the worst of poor placement can be alleviated to a significant extent electronically.

So I'd contend that placing speakers with their own powered subwoofers in a place where they image best and then dealing with the room bass-issues with electronic compensation gives no worse an overall presentation than having separate subs and satellites with the subs placed sub-optimally (no pun intended) and then treated with similar electronic compensation.

In a dedicated HT room, then separate subwoofers are fine and expected. In a dual-use living room, less so. Integrating the powered subwoofer and the main speakers provides WAF while still giving the visceral response that self-powered subs can provide.

Feb 22, 2019 12:37:43 GMT -5 garbulky said:

8 ohm impedance - unncessary. If one is buying a $2000 set of speakers you don't need to run this with AVRs. Tube amps, yes. But then you are talking about niche markets. Most speakers I see are 4 ohm or 6 ohm nominal nowdays. With most solid state power amps going 8 ohm impedance also decreases the power available though dampening factor is also reduced..

Yes and no. The majority of $2K speakers will NOT be run by an AVR, it's true. But even solid state amps, and particularly Class-D amps seem to sound better with higher impedance speakers. Yes, you can deliver more power to a lower impedance load, all other things being the same, but virtually NOBODY listens loudly enough to need that extra power. The question of note is "what does this amp-speaker combo sound like at normal listening levels (usually of one watt or less)?"

Some amps won't care, but many do. And for all (that I've heard) which do, they universally sound their best with higher-impedance speakers (all other things being equal). Now this isn't to say that SOME 4-ohm speakers won't sound good with most amps. Nobody debates that Magnepans (or even your Axioms, garbulky) sound really good even despite their nominal 4-ohm impedance. But when the impedance drops below that 4-ohm line, and/or when the multi-element crossover sits between the amp terminals and the drivers, an amp must be pretty muscular to sound its best into a load like that.

Feb 22, 2019 12:37:43 GMT -5 garbulky said:

Built in subwoofer - no thanks. Then I have to worry about matching gain levels. Also then you have two different amps powering your two channel. Usually the subwoofer amp is some class D amp I know little about. I'd prefer either all active or all passive. Also most of the time built in subwoofer really means that you get more bass but not "below 20hz or even 20 hz" unless you are going for significantly bigger speakers.

I'd agree with you here but for one thing. At normal subwoofer crossover frequencies, you'll never hear the "difference in amps." You'd definitely hear it biamping with a crossover point in the midrange - but for subs - nope. I don't think so.

But as always, I could be wrong...

Boomzilla

[klinemj]

I'd like to see what Emotiva could do with a higher price point. I would definitely not want a built-in sub. I have experimented with placement of mine and I like having independence of placement of the sub vs. the upper/mids. I love the sound of my Maggies, and I do think the T2's upper end is pretty magic. I wonder what could be done with expansion of the folded ribbon tweeter technology to make a midrange driver. I know some have done it.

Wonder what that would sound like?

Mark

[Bonzo]

This conversation always goes off in 2 camps. The only big issue I have with it is that the anti-built-in-sub people almost never acknowledge the MANY advantages to having built in subs, especially for music. I have seen the comparisons, and for every advantage there may be going with separate subs, there is an equal advantage to going with built ins. From what I've seen and read, the built-in list of advantages is longer and has some stronger points. But to each their own.

Me, I've ran my Def Techs alone for years now. But last fall I got a HSU sub (which has yet to be hooked up). Once it is, I can experiment to my hearts content. But the basic idea is to use my mains with speaker wire only as full range for music, with no HSU. For movies, I will run 1 set of sub wires to the back of the speakers, and one sub wire to the HSU. This way I can adjust them independently if needed or wanted. For TV, I'm going to wait and see, but I could even do something in-between. And each setting will change with each input selected, so once set, I can forget.

[bootman]

There is a lot of competition in the 2-3K range.
Lots of great choices.
Maybe that has something to do with it.

[knucklehead]

Feb 22, 2019 10:12:55 GMT -5 selind40 said:

T1 & T2 , They are some ugly speakers...says the guy with a set or ERT 8.3's.....

If I weren't so damned curious about other speakers I could have been happy for a lifetime with the ERTs. They are an excellent speaker. And the ERM-1/s, 6.2s & 6.3s were also very good when properly integrated with a sub. I love a good tweeter and the ERT/ERM line had very good tweets, which is why I've been happy for 10+ years with ERD-1 surrounds.

[knucklehead]

Feb 22, 2019 12:22:44 GMT -5 goldenear2 said:

Feb 22, 2019 10:06:51 GMT -5 DYohn said:

You really don't want a built-in subwoofer. Trust me, unless your room is the perfect shape for them, they cause issues. I know of at least three people with Golden Ear Tritons who love the sound but hate the subs and two of them have disabled the built-n subs. And "Batman-like angles" are to help minimize enclosure edge diffraction distortion, and are generally a good thing. If you don't like the looks leave the grills on.

No Disrespect but you don't know what you're talking about. I own Goldenear Triton Reference with built-in subs. Prior to that I had the Triton 2's for 5 years. Goldenear speakers are the finest speakers I've had the privilege of listening to in my house. The built-in sub is a God send. If you can remember, who are the persons who disconnected their Triton subs? I'd like to know. Only an idiot/twit/fool would disconnect the sub in an GEt Triton speaker.

I agree with dyohn on this one, and from personal experience. I had a pair of Infinity Interlude IL50s with a 10" 250w sub in each speaker for 5-6 years. Never could get them set up properly, even with Infinity's RABOS system. In a perfect room they would work great, never did care for them.

[selind40]

Feb 22, 2019 19:01:36 GMT -5 knucklehead said:

Feb 22, 2019 10:12:55 GMT -5 selind40 said:

T1 & T2 , They are some ugly speakers...says the guy with a set or ERT 8.3's.....

If I weren't so damned curious about other speakers I could have been happy for a lifetime with the ERTs. They are an excellent speaker. And the ERM-1/s, 6.2s & 6.3s were also very good when properly integrated with a sub. I love a good tweeter and the ERT/ERM line had very good tweets, which is why I've been happy for 10+ years with ERD-1 surrounds.

Bought the ERT 8.3's from the same guy I bought my XPA-2 & XPA-3 from.....oh, and a set of Boston Acoustic VR-30's & a VR 12 center......and a pair of VRM-60's......oh, and a Sherborn SR-120.....I was like a fat kid at a candy buffet....totally out of control.....lmao.

[Loop 7]

I'm trying to think of companies who make speakers with built-in subs AND ALSO make other AV gear.

I think PS Audio is launching a speaker line with built-in subs and they have preamps, amps, DACs, power products and even some cables. Meridian too.

My point being maybe it demands a ton of engineering time and focus.

[Boomzilla]

Feb 22, 2019 20:28:27 GMT -5 Loop 7 said:

...My point being maybe it demands a ton of engineering time and focus.

I'd agree 100% with that statement. A good passive speaker is hard enough to engineer, but a hybrid one with its own self-contained, self-powered subwoofer bumps up the design requirements exponentially. Mr. Gayle Sanders (of Goldenear) seems up to the task, but for every "built-in subwoofer" speaker model that's achieved critical success, there seem to be a dozen others that just didn't cut it.

That being the case, my "plan B" for an Emotiva "Flagship Airmotiv" speaker would be one with an anechoic -3dB bass knee of maybe 25-30 Hz. in a passive cabinet. This is also a difficult design, but other companies have done it (Jim Thiel with his CS-7i, KEF Blades, and some of the Legacy models). Considering the larger cabinet and larger drivers required, however, the self-powered sub might be the less-expensive option.

But since this is all academic speculation anyway, I can wish for whatever I choose!

[DYohn]

Feb 22, 2019 16:47:56 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

So I'd contend that placing speakers with their own powered subwoofers in a place where they image best and then dealing with the room bass-issues with electronic compensation gives no worse an overall presentation than having separate subs and satellites with the subs placed sub-optimally (no pun intended) and then treated with similar electronic compensation.

In a dedicated HT room, then separate subwoofers are fine and expected. In a dual-use living room, less so. Integrating the powered subwoofer and the main speakers provides WAF while still giving the visceral response that self-powered subs can provide.

I'll guess that you hold this opinion because you have never really experienced a properly set up and integrated 2.1 system. I hope you get that opportunity one day. IMO nothing (nothing) beats it.

[jackfish]

Or one could just get the Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II.

[Boomzilla]

Feb 23, 2019 8:44:44 GMT -5 DYohn said:

I'll guess that you hold this opinion because you have never really experienced a properly set up and integrated 2.1 system. I hope you get that opportunity one day. IMO nothing (nothing) beats it.

In fact, I have heard several properly set and integrated 2.1 and 2.2 systems. Yes, they are spectacular.