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Post by knucklehead on Feb 25, 2019 20:34:15 GMT -5
So many speakers built today are trying to be duel purpose- theater & music. packed into a slender cabinet.and need a sub. If you want good 2-ch, get speakers designed for full range (BIG woofers) 3-way minimum,.without theater size limitations or sub required. My opinion. I used to think this too. And don't try to sell me a bookshelf speaker, I'd say to the salesperson, or a two way tower. I guess I'm learning. My 2 way Song Towers don't need a sub, and they have two dinky little 5 1/4" woofers in each transmission line cabinet. I was seduced for a time by the Polk LSiM705s I also have. Bass response with the Polks are as good as I've heard in a tower speaker, and with great detail, but so are the ST's. It's amazing that it often takes a lifetime (I'm 71yo) to learn something! The ring radiator tweeters in the Polks are their downfall IMO. A bit shrill with some music, but are a very well rounded speaker too. |
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Post by Cogito on Feb 25, 2019 20:42:11 GMT -5
Hi Chuckie - In defense of Cogito , I don't think that he's "trashing" Emotiva speakers at all - I only think he's saying that he: a) thinks there are a LOT of good speakers on the market at higher prices (he's right) and b) he doesn't like the black vinyl look (I don't either) I've never seen or heard the Emotiva ERT speaker models, but I'm sure that they're all you say they are. And at their price points, the current Emotiva T2 speakers (that you seem to criticize because of their lighter weight compared to the ERTs) sound just amazing. We agree wholeheartedly that Mr. L. has built a very fine company and that his high-value, direct-to-buyer sales model is the "wave of the future" for high end sales. But let's maybe be gentler to fellow Lounge members who, after all, are also Emotiva enthusiasts? Boom, I gave the weights of both the ERT-8 and T2 to show that they are much heavier than the 7211, not to compare them to each other (have you been drinking? ...  ). He sure doesn't sound like an Emotiva speaker enthusiast. He writes: Emotiva would have to have to do something REALLY special in order to compete. I read that as an insult! He in so many words is saying that the Emotiva speakers don't compete. I say nonsense! Check out the 7211's as they are way over hyped and overpriced speakers. Boom, have you looked at the specs and reviews? Have you read the Alcoholics reviews on the Emo speakers and many other online reviews. I didn't think so. He also implies that Emotiva is not a successful company in speaker design. Vance Dickason helped design the Original Reference line. I'll bet Cogito doesn't even know who he is. Emo speakers being factory direct have been 50% less than and more than most comparable speakers. My Emo XPA-5 was $700 (reg $800) from Emo and the very similar Parasound model ran $2500 and up. Just an example. Emotiva speaker have outperformed many at 2-3 times the price. The change to made in the US has probably narrowed that price advantage, but they are still a great buy and high quality speaker. Do I need to post some of the reviews on the newer Emo speakers? Go somewhere else and post that Emotiva doesn't make speakers that compete! While I appreciate Boom coming to my defense, it's not necessary. I am absolutely and Emotiva fanboy and think they make fantastic equipment in their price ranges and well beyond. NEVER did I say Emotiva wasn't a successful speaker designer nor did I imply that their speakers aren't competitive. None of it is pertinent anyway. The fact is, when you get into the $2000-3000 a pair price range, the competition is formidable and selling vinyl clad boxes is NOT going to make them stand out in the hotly contested market. As for the 7211s... I have to assume that Chuckie has NEVER heard these "over hyped and overpriced" speakers or any other Source Loudspeaker Technology systems for that matter. No worries Chuckie, most people haven't. With that in mind, I also assume you speak with the authority of ignorance. |
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Post by Cogito on Feb 25, 2019 20:46:04 GMT -5
...PS: Guess who posted this several years ago? " Seems to me, if Emotiva debuted at 2-4 times the prices they sold for, these same
people would "ooohing" and "awwwwing" about the gear. From my short "real world"
experience, Emotiva may actually save the "hi-end" audio/video business. People can
actually buy top performing gear for "mid-fi" prices." ? LOL  As to the video, классно Like I said, I'm an Emotiva fanboy no matter what Ol' Chuckie says... |
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Post by knucklehead on Feb 25, 2019 21:06:24 GMT -5
I think we were all discussing speakers in the $2,000 to $3,000 per pair range. Emotiva makes no speakers in that price range. And they would have to "do something really special to compete" IN THAT PRICE RANGE. Boom They already did that, they were called the Reference Series ERT 8.3s. I bought a pair of the first lot of speakers back in 2010/11? Damn fine sound, and if you want to get a hint of how good they were, buy the next pair of ERM-1's you might stumble upon that are for sale. Those ERTs had it all, great bass from dual 8" drivers in a sealed cab, a great sounding tweeter, and those dual 5 1/2" mid woofers gave all the slam you could ever ask for in a speaker that inexpensive, $1598 IIRC, shipped. The ERM-1 will sound very similar in a well balance setup with a sub. I've done that. I even had the ERM 6.2, which I thought sounded no better (not a bad thing at all) then the ERM-1s. They come up on the Emporium once in a while, and are not expensive. If you haven't checked out Salk, why not? In your price range you can get the standard Song Towers for $2k plus shipping. I can't believe Jim Salk is still selling these for that price. And you'll still have some jingle in your pocket after you buy them. Audio Circles has them used once in a while, but you did mention you wanted new. If you have any interest in them check out the Salk Owner's thread on AVS. Lots of very happy campers. That includes myself. Or maybe you can make a road trip to my neck of the woods and take a listen to some very good Polk LSiM705. Bring your pickup truck! There is a thread on AVS that's titled " I'll demo my Speakers" thread, maybe someone is close to you that owns the STs. You never know. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 26, 2019 1:27:55 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 4:23:14 GMT -5
NEVER did I say Emotiva wasn't a successful speaker designer nor did I imply that their speakers aren't competitive........... I was going to move on but first need to point out that Cogito did say Emo speakers were not competitive and also implied they are not successfully designed. He should read his own words from above post, see below: "There are some GREAT speakers out there in the 2-3 grand price point from companies that have been successfully designing and building loudspeaker for decades, lifetimes even. Emotiva would have to have to do something REALLY special in order to compete."BTW: The Emotiva speakers I'm currently listening to were designed with services from Vance Dickason (Loudspeaker Design Cookbook 7th Edition) who has done design work for Snell, Atlantic Technology, MB Quart, Rodgers Instrument, Stillwater Designs, Signet, M&K, Audax, Audix, Fishman Transducers, NEAR, Dai Ichi, Samsung, Niles, Microsoft, Parasound and Bravox. A number of non-ignorant audiofools have commented that the Emo ERD-1 was the best surround speaker design ever. Secrets of Home Theater Review: .......... I’d have to say that (in my room and to my ears) I prefer the sound of the inexpensive T2s over every other speaker I’ve tried, regardless of price ...... Note that in every case, the Emotiva Airmotiv T2 speakers (costing half or less, in most cases) outperformed the other available competitors ..... The Emotiva Airmotiv T2 tower speakers and C2 center channel speaker deliver some of the very best sound I’ve heard, regardless of price. |
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Post by Loop 7 on Feb 26, 2019 5:14:57 GMT -5
I am a confirmed stand mount person and I can't seem to shake it. My stance is clearly illogical but I keep coming back to stand mounts.
I think it may stem from cutting my teeth with bookshelf speakers in my first apartment and using compact studio monitors at the college radio station where I worked. I also think it's a visual thing. I love the look of stand mounts and the towers I've owned just seemed to dominate the room - I live in a condo in the bay area so I don't have the larger rooms some in the Lounge do.
I absolutely loved my Vandersteen 2ce Signature speakers but they took over the room visually so I sold them. I told you... illogical.
So, I am happily living with Focal stand mounts and a small REL sub for 2 channel. It's just about perfect for me.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 26, 2019 10:43:17 GMT -5
Obviously everyone has their own preference when it comes to looks. Personally I prefer oiled walnut or dark oak veneer. (And, no, I can't stand high-gloss varnish, or that "piano black" finish, both of which look like "expensive plastic" to me - my $150 Roku is finished in "piano black".) Unfortunately, real wood veneer is rather expensive, and there are lots of different kinds.... So, if you pick one particular type, then it will only be a few people's favorite, and offering custom veneer options gets very expensive.... (Almost everybody likes real wood veneer... but very few people like the price tag.)
I've got to say that, compared to some of the colors I've seen Tekton Pendragons painted, I much prefer even black vinyl... it least it's a neutral color.
Black lacquer works equally well for me... although I don't like the gloss black and some flat black lacquer tends to take greasy fingerprints rather easily.
(I saw a pair of Pendragons once... painted in the same exact aqua green that was popular in bathrooms in the 1950's... usually with matching acrylic plastic sea horses hanging on the walls... no thanks!)
However, I've got to say that, when it comes to speakers, I'm much more interested in how they sound than in how they look.
There are some GREAT speakers out there in the 2-3 grand price point from companies that have been successfully designing and building loudspeaker for decades, lifetimes even. Emotiva would have to have to do something REALLY special in order to compete. First thing they would need to do is to get rid of that DAMN UGLY black vinyl wrap crap! Real wood veneers or at least nice paint jobs like Tekton's. |
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Post by Cogito on Feb 26, 2019 17:15:55 GMT -5
NEVER did I say Emotiva wasn't a successful speaker designer nor did I imply that their speakers aren't competitive........... I was going to move on but first need to point out that Cogito did say Emo speakers were not competitive and also implied they are not successfully designed. He should read his own words from above post, see below: "There are some GREAT speakers out there in the 2-3 grand price point from companies that have been successfully designing and building loudspeaker for decades, lifetimes even. Emotiva would have to have to do something REALLY special in order to compete."BTW: The Emotiva speakers I'm currently listening to were designed with services from Vance Dickason (Loudspeaker Design Cookbook 7th Edition) who has done design work for Snell, Atlantic Technology, MB Quart, Rodgers Instrument, Stillwater Designs, Signet, M&K, Audax, Audix, Fishman Transducers, NEAR, Dai Ichi, Samsung, Niles, Microsoft, Parasound and Bravox. A number of non-ignorant audiofools have commented that the Emo ERD-1 was the best surround speaker design ever. Secrets of Home Theater Review: .......... I’d have to say that (in my room and to my ears) I prefer the sound of the inexpensive T2s over every other speaker I’ve tried, regardless of price ...... Note that in every case, the Emotiva Airmotiv T2 speakers (costing half or less, in most cases) outperformed the other available competitors ..... The Emotiva Airmotiv T2 tower speakers and C2 center channel speaker deliver some of the very best sound I’ve heard, regardless of price. Chuckie, were you ever a professional pretzel baker? I ask, because nobody I know can twist stuff around like you. Seriously though, I'm thrilled you are enjoying your Emotiva speakers. |
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Post by Cogito on Feb 26, 2019 17:28:05 GMT -5
Obviously everyone has their own preference when it comes to looks. Personally I prefer oiled walnut or dark oak veneer. (And, no, I can't stand high-gloss varnish, or that "piano black" finish, both of which look like "expensive plastic" to me - my $150 Roku is finished in "piano black".) Unfortunately, real wood veneer is rather expensive, and there are lots of different kinds.... So, if you pick one particular type, then it will only be a few people's favorite, and offering custom veneer options gets very expensive.... (Almost everybody likes real wood veneer... but very few people like the price tag.)
I've got to say that, compared to some of the colors I've seen Tekton Pendragons painted, I much prefer even black vinyl... it least it's a neutral color.
Black lacquer works equally well for me... although I don't like the gloss black and some flat black lacquer tends to take greasy fingerprints rather easily.
(I saw a pair of Pendragons once... painted in the same exact aqua green that was popular in bathrooms in the 1950's... usually with matching acrylic plastic sea horses hanging on the walls... no thanks!) However, I've got to say that, when it comes to speakers, I'm much more interested in how they sound than in how they look.
There are some GREAT speakers out there in the 2-3 grand price point from companies that have been successfully designing and building loudspeaker for decades, lifetimes even. Emotiva would have to have to do something REALLY special in order to compete. First thing they would need to do is to get rid of that DAMN UGLY black vinyl wrap crap! Real wood veneers or at least nice paint jobs like Tekton's. I agree Keith, the most important thing that matters is how they sound to YOU. However, there's certainly something to be said about the look of fine wood finishes. Salk speakers come to mind. Some of their finishes are absolutely stunning! Why not have speakers that not only sound great, but look great in your listening space too? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 26, 2019 19:22:15 GMT -5
For those who find the Emotiva Airmotiv T2 bass too bass-powerful, may I recommend two options (available to everybody whether or not your system has tone controls):
1. Lift the speakers up using stands. A simple 10 to 12 inch lift will do surprising things for the bass. Whatever may be lost in extension and output is typically more than made up for by increased bass detail and tonality.
2. Bring the speakers farther away from their rear wall. This reduces the wall reinforcement of the bass frequencies and, again, generally provides increased detail and tonality.
For those who wish to extend the Emotiva Airmotiv T2 bass slightly below the factory tuning (-3dB @ 35 Hz.) without using a subwoofer:
1. Use a parametric equalizer to create a +4 or +5 dB, high-Q peak centered at 30 to 32 Hz. If you plan on playing the speakers LOUDLY, however, you'd better either bring some watts (200+ maybe?) or reduce the amplitude of the peak.
2. Use a simultaneous parametric equalizer to abruptly (24 to 36 dB / octave) roll off the bass below 28 to 30 Hz. This is necessary to keep the woofer cones from becoming unloaded below their port tuning frequency. Let the cones bang from stop to stop on their excursion, and you invite woofer damage. In phonograph parlance, this would have been called a "rumble filter."
OTOH, most find that their T2s provide a plenitude of bass in most room without any enhancement at all. They certainly did in my room!
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 27, 2019 23:21:01 GMT -5
AS THE FIELD NARROWS (?)
Speakers being considered (Since Emotiva isn't likely to build what I want anytime soon - LOL):
1. The Emotiva T2 ($1K new) PROS - Fills my room with clean, deep-sounding bass - I've heard it in my room - Will work well with the amps I've got - CONS - Ugly - No really deep bass without a sub
2. Magnepan 3.7i ($2K used) PROS - Huge image - Good WAF - CONS - May need a sub - May need more muscular amps than what I currently own
3. Revel F-30 ($1K used) PROS - Pretty wood - Good WAF - May not need a sub - CONS - May be at the end of its service life - No parts available
4. GoldenEar Triton 1 ($3.5K used) PROS - Has its own built-in, self-powered sub - Well-reviewed - CONS - Not cheap - Ugly black
5. Klipsch La Scala II ($3.5K used) PROS - Low distortion - High efficiency - CONS - Needs a LOT of space - WAF - Needs a sub
6. Tekton Double Impact ($3K new) PROS - Low distortion - High efficiency - CONS - The Pendragons had a midrange dip & I haven't heard the Tekton midranges
7. Axiom M80 ($2.5K new) PROS - WAF - I've heard it in my room - Works with amps I already own - CONS - May need a sub in my room
Note that I've studiously avoided two-way speakers and bookshelf-sized ones. And yes, there are a whole LOT of good speakers that aren't on this list. But I'm having to physically restrain myself from just jumping on the Emotiva T2s - they're THAT good on an absolute basis even ignoring their price.
What's holding me back? I need to sell two or three pairs of speakers I've already got (Thiel CS-1.6, Klipsch RP-600m, and a pair of JBL towers) just to make room for anything else. Want an OMG good price on any of my current speaker pairs? PM me!
Boomzilla
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Post by jackfish on Feb 28, 2019 2:24:25 GMT -5
Have you listened to the Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II?
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 28, 2019 4:48:45 GMT -5
Have you listened to the Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II? Never. Not a Vandy dealer within a thousand miles of here. Yes, that's an exaggeration, but I've never seen or heard a pair - really. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 28, 2019 8:34:09 GMT -5
Modifying that list somewhat...
1. The Emotiva T2 ($1K new) PROS - Fills my room with clean, deep-sounding bass - I've heard it in my room - Will work well with the amps I've got - CONS - Ugly - No really deep bass without a sub
2. Magnepan 3.7i ($2K used) PROS - Huge image - Good WAF - CONS - May need a sub - May need more muscular amps than what I currently own - TOO EXPENSIVE
3. Revel F-30 ($1K used) PROS - Pretty wood - Good WAF - May not need a sub - CONS - May be at the end of its service life - No parts available - TOO OLD
4. GoldenEar Triton 1 ($3.5K used) PROS - Has its own built-in, self-powered sub - Well-reviewed - CONS - Not cheap - Ugly black - TOO EXPENSIVE
5. Klipsch La Scala II ($3.5K used) PROS - Low distortion - High efficiency - CONS - Needs a LOT of space - WAF - Needs a sub - TOO BIG
6. Tekton Double Impact ($3K new) PROS - Low distortion - High efficiency - CONS - The Pendragons had a midrange dip & I haven't heard the Tekton midranges - TOO EXPENSIVE
7. Axiom M80 ($2.5K new) PROS - WAF - I've heard it in my room - Works with amps I already own - CONS - May need a sub in my room
8. Dahlquist DQ-10 ($500 used) PROS - Parts are still available - clean sound - grandson proof - CONS - Needs a sub
9. Magnepan 1.7i ($2K new) - PROS - Huge Image - Works with my existing amps - WAF - CONS - Probably needs a sub in my room - Prone to grandson's fingers with possible damage
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Post by garbulky on Feb 28, 2019 10:17:04 GMT -5
Modifying that list somewhat... 1. The Emotiva T2 ($1K new) PROS - Fills my room with clean, deep-sounding bass - I've heard it in my room - Will work well with the amps I've got - CONS - Ugly - No really deep bass without a sub 2. Magnepan 3.7i ($2K used) PROS - Huge image - Good WAF - CONS - May need a sub - May need more muscular amps than what I currently own - TOO EXPENSIVE 3. Revel F-30 ($1K used) PROS - Pretty wood - Good WAF - May not need a sub - CONS - May be at the end of its service life - No parts available - TOO OLD 4. GoldenEar Triton 1 ($3.5K used) PROS - Has its own built-in, self-powered sub - Well-reviewed - CONS - Not cheap - Ugly black - TOO EXPENSIVE 5. Klipsch La Scala II ($3.5K used) PROS - Low distortion - High efficiency - CONS - Needs a LOT of space - WAF - Needs a sub - TOO BIG 6. Tekton Double Impact ($3K new) PROS - Low distortion - High efficiency - CONS - The Pendragons had a midrange dip & I haven't heard the Tekton midranges - TOO EXPENSIVE 7. Axiom M80 ($2.5K new) PROS - WAF - I've heard it in my room - Works with amps I already own - CONS - May need a sub in my room 8. Dahlquist DQ-10 ($500 used) PROS - Parts are still available - clean sound - grandson proof - CONS - Needs a sub 9. Magnepan 1.7i ($2K new) - PROS - Huge Image - Works with my existing amps - WAF - CONS - Probably needs a sub in my room - Prone to grandson's fingers with possible damage I don’t know about you but the Emotiva T2 did not need a sub for a very deep bass. It was the deepest most powerful sounding speaker I’ve heard in your room.of course a sub can helps and imo is the right choice in your room. There is nothing like dual subwoofers. How to smoothest sound that’s what you want. But out of every speaker I’ve heard that your place, the T2 was the most capable in the bass department out doing even the Pendragon Though most likely the Pendragon would I would compete it in sheer spl volume capability |
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Post by foggy1956 on Feb 28, 2019 16:55:44 GMT -5
Modifying that list somewhat... 1. The Emotiva T2 ($1K new) PROS - Fills my room with clean, deep-sounding bass - I've heard it in my room - Will work well with the amps I've got - CONS - Ugly - No really deep bass without a sub 2. Magnepan 3.7i ($2K used) PROS - Huge image - Good WAF - CONS - May need a sub - May need more muscular amps than what I currently own - TOO EXPENSIVE 3. Revel F-30 ($1K used) PROS - Pretty wood - Good WAF - May not need a sub - CONS - May be at the end of its service life - No parts available - TOO OLD 4. GoldenEar Triton 1 ($3.5K used) PROS - Has its own built-in, self-powered sub - Well-reviewed - CONS - Not cheap - Ugly black - TOO EXPENSIVE 5. Klipsch La Scala II ($3.5K used) PROS - Low distortion - High efficiency - CONS - Needs a LOT of space - WAF - Needs a sub - TOO BIG 6. Tekton Double Impact ($3K new) PROS - Low distortion - High efficiency - CONS - The Pendragons had a midrange dip & I haven't heard the Tekton midranges - TOO EXPENSIVE 7. Axiom M80 ($2.5K new) PROS - WAF - I've heard it in my room - Works with amps I already own - CONS - May need a sub in my room 8. Dahlquist DQ-10 ($500 used) PROS - Parts are still available - clean sound - grandson proof - CONS - Needs a sub 9. Magnepan 1.7i ($2K new) - PROS - Huge Image - Works with my existing amps - WAF - CONS - Probably needs a sub in my room - Prone to grandson's fingers with possible damage I don’t know about you but the Emotiva T2 did not need a sub for a very deep bass. It was the deepest most powerful sounding speaker I’ve heard in your room.of course a sub can helps and imo is the right choice in your room. There is nothing like dual subwoofers. How to smoothest sound that’s what you want. But out of every speaker I’ve heard that your place, the T2 was the most capable in the bass department out doing even the Pendragon Though most likely the Pendragon would I would compete it in sheer spl volume capability The T2's produced better base than the Pendragons? |
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Post by garbulky on Feb 28, 2019 17:00:37 GMT -5
I don’t know about you but the Emotiva T2 did not need a sub for a very deep bass. It was the deepest most powerful sounding speaker I’ve heard in your room.of course a sub can helps and imo is the right choice in your room. There is nothing like dual subwoofers. How to smoothest sound that’s what you want. But out of every speaker I’ve heard that your place, the T2 was the most capable in the bass department out doing even the Pendragon Though most likely the Pendragon would I would compete it in sheer spl volume capability The T2's produced better base than the Pendragons? In a way yes I felt the sound coupled to the room better. But the Pendragons did have the capability of incredible volume and it wasn't shy on bass. So it would probably beat the T2 in regards to sheer power. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 28, 2019 20:40:24 GMT -5
The T2s seemed to go lower in frequency extension than the Pendragons. Both speakers had good leading edge bass dynamics.
Where the T2s take the lead is in the midrange. The Pendragons, being 2-way speakers, have a slight but audible narrowing of dispersion from those 10" woofers before they hand off to the tweeters. This manifests in the room (unless you're listening EXACTLY on axis) as a very slight midrange dip. It's hard to hear, but once you notice it, it nags like a broken fingernail. The T2s, with their midrange driver, don't have that issue.
The Pendragons can play MUCH more loudly than the T2s, but this isn't a priority for me at all.
Now this isn't to say that the Pendragons are bad speakers - in fact the majority of listeners would be stunned by their sound. But for my ears in my room, the Emotiva T2s are the better choice.
Boomzilla
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Post by simpleman68 on Feb 28, 2019 20:52:03 GMT -5
Where the T2s take the lead is in the midrange. The Pendragons, being 2-way speakers, have a slight but audible narrowing of dispersion from those 10" woofers before they hand off to the tweeters. This manifests in the room (unless you're listening EXACTLY on axis) as a very slight midrange dip. It's hard to hear, but once you notice it, it nags like a broken fingernail. The T2s, with their midrange driver, don't have that issue. Boomzilla I think the T2s shine, in this instance, due to not only being a 3 way system but those AMT tweets are fricken' magic. They take the harsh edge off poor mastering and make a good recording just float in the air.
During the demo at Emofest a Beck track was played at fairly high volumes and the AMTs still made it sound very good.
Lots of stuff to look at in that range. I was browsing Agon earlier with search set to range speakers from $500-1500. Paradigm, Thiel, Sonus 2.5, Vandy 2ce, B&W, Meridian, etc. Lots of options if he were willing to go used.
Scott
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). He sure doesn't sound like an Emotiva speaker enthusiast. He writes: Emotiva would have to have to do something REALLY special in order to compete. I read that as an insult!
