stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on May 14, 2019 8:08:17 GMT -5
Bought my XPR-2 from a Lounge member earlier this year. It had recently been serviced by Emotiva. Keith has also said that the XPR line is serviceable by Emotiva within warranty with the exceptions of chassis. This thread is like listening to a bunch of gossipy old women who believe anything they hear, as long as it's bad.
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Post by rbk123 on May 14, 2019 8:10:15 GMT -5
However, that is not what has me confused. Making comparisons of Schiit versus Emotiva would actually make sense to me. Comparing Emotiva to Bryston or McIntosh does not. If you really want a 20 year warranty and the promise of decades of potential repairs then you really need to pony up and buy that Bryston or McIntosh. That is part of what you pay for with that big price tag. Its part of their value proposition. I'm not going to address buying a used premium brand versus Emotiva. That is a whole other discussion and much more complicated. My focus is simply about comparing purchasing new retail price purchasing. This is correct. Emotiva isn't Bryston, Krell, or Mc nor have they ever claimed to be. Apples and oranges. |
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Post by pedrocols on May 14, 2019 8:12:26 GMT -5
Regardless of either the amps are being serviced or not the issue I have is that any amp shouldn't need servicing only after a couple of years of being used. I built a pair of tube amps in my living room and never had any issues after over three years of ownership. An amp needing servicing only after a few years that shouldn't happen.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 14, 2019 8:46:18 GMT -5
Like most audio amplifiers - and especially higher-powered Class A/B amps - the amplified moduler in the XPR amps are built out of more or less readily available individual parts. Replacing an entire module because a part fails is equivalent to replacing the entire door on your car because the door handle gets broken. A dealer might do it because it's quick and easy - and if they happen to have one on hand - but they aren't going to stock replacement doors for every model and color. (And, if they replace the entire door, you'll get your car back quickly, but you'll also end up paying $2000 to get your $50 door handle fixed.)
A competent repair technician will troubleshoot the problem, find out which parts have failed, and replace just those parts. This is exactly what we would do if we were to repair an XPR amp here. We put it on the bench, troubleshoot it, and fix it.
And, if we don't have the parts in stock, we order them - just as any other repair shop should be able to do.
(In fact, the few custom parts, like the heat sink, and the big transformer, which can't just be ordered, are also the ones that pretty much never fail.)
Swapping out entire modules is convenient, and can be practical on a current product, where there are a lot of them in circulation, and a lot still being serviced.
It's also convenient for a dealer or distributor who only has moderately qualified technicians available - it takes less training and knowledge to swap a module than to repair one. The fact that we no longer have spare modules in stock simply puts the XPR amps in the same situation as any other amplifier that's simply made out of parts. If it breaks - then you fix it.
Unfortunately, the XPR amps are large, heavy, and complex - which does make them somewhat difficult to work on. The other issue with the XPR amps is that, because they are big and heavy, which makes them very difficult to ship. This means that, every time you ship one, there is a significant chance that it will be damaged in shipping.
The other thing, which a lt of people don't seem to realize, is that troubleshooting a problem generally requires that you run the unit you're trying to fix. This means that, for example, if you want to repair an XPR amp module, you have to have it installed and running in an XPR amp to do so. So, if you send in a separate module, we actually have to take your module, install it in another amplifier, repair and test it, then remove it from that amplifier and ship it back to you.
(And we have to hope that it will arrive intact - and be reinstalled properly at your end.) This makes for a lot of labor, which means that the repair is going to cost more. (The alternative is to maintain a collection of special test jigs used just to repair modules - which only makes sense if you're repairing more than a few a year.)
Altogether, if you do have a competent local repair shop, it's a LOT more practical to have an XPR amp repaired locally.
Yes the XPR can be serviced. Nothing is exotic inside. So relax! Unlike a processor with it the main chip comes from Mars and we can't get it anymore, the XPR uses parts and has equivalents. So the XPR will soldier on for quite some time with the support just about any competent tech can service. It isn't magic folks. It is just a real good amplifier. So if an XPR amp module goes bad, and Emotiva no longer has them in stock...you believe they will somehow magically get one to swap in for repair? I have heard differently. Once from a seller on Ebay with his XPR-5 for sale and only four channels working. His reply to me is that Emotiva no longer stocks spare amp modules for the XPPR and can therefor no longer repair the amps if the modules go bad. I have also seen a similar post in the Emotiva group Facebook page. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 14, 2019 9:10:52 GMT -5
We do not publish our schematics because they are our intellectual property. Our equipment is NOT open source, in the public domain, or DIY friendly...
And, to be quite blunt, we're not interested in encouraging people to critique our designs, compare them to other designs, or modify our equipment. Therefore, we most certainly DO NOT want our schematics passed around on the Internet...
There's also a matter of liability. If we give you, as an END USER, permission to work on our gear, and you electrocute yourself while doing so, or burn down your garage later, then we get blamed. (I think that, if you read the fine print, you'll find that Sam's is somewhat careful to avoid "suggesting that unqualified end users work on live electrical equipment".)
However, we routinely share our schematics, particularly on out-of-warranty gear, with repair shops, and with qualified repair technicians. And, if you convince us you're a qualified technician, and have an actual need for those schematics, I'm sure we'd have no problem sharing them with you.
Well, I have a two year degree in electronics, and thirty years experience in aircraft mounted communications and data processing equipment. What I don't have is a store front or business license. Can I get a copy of the schematic for my Gen. 1 XPA-2s? I've just checked with my alma mater, Sams Photofacts, to see if they had any Emotiva schematics. They don't. |
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Post by repeetavx on May 14, 2019 9:20:32 GMT -5
This is the way I understand topic at hand. As far as the ability of Emotiva to be able to repair one of their products, two things must be in effect.
1. They are currently in production.
2. Or they are under the warranty period.
So if the last produced product of a series finally falls out of warranty, Emotiva "divests" itself of the ability/responsibility to repair it.
My heartburn is that if, twelve years down the road, one of my obsolete amps requires a repair that I am willing to pay for, Emotiva appears to be saying that they are not interested in that business. That a third party must be employed to do the repair, if Emotiva considers the repair shop worthy of receiving their documentation.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 14, 2019 9:28:02 GMT -5
Thank you....
I mentioned it earlier in the thread... but I'll drag it up again.... Bryston's amp with specs equivalent to our XPA-DR2 costs right around four TIMES as much. ($6700 vs $1700 )
Let me put that in perspective.....
For the price of a Bryston 4B3 you can buy....
- One Emotiva DR-2 (to use)
- Another Emotiva XPA-DR2 (to use in another system - or keep as a spare)
- A premium Tidal or Qobuz subscription for the next five years (or 300+ CDs - if you still go that way)
- At least a few nice dinners to celebrate your investment acumen
And, while I don't offhand recall hearing any comparisons to Bryston.... I've had a few people tell me that our gear actually sounded better than the McIntosh gear they bought it to replace...
We make great sounding gear for people to listen to...
For long term investment - I would suggest real estate...
However, that is not what has me confused. Making comparisons of Schiit versus Emotiva would actually make sense to me. Comparing Emotiva to Bryston or McIntosh does not. If you really want a 20 year warranty and the promise of decades of potential repairs then you really need to pony up and buy that Bryston or McIntosh. That is part of what you pay for with that big price tag. Its part of their value proposition. I'm not going to address buying a used premium brand versus Emotiva. That is a whole other discussion and much more complicated. My focus is simply about comparing purchasing new retail price purchasing. This is correct. Emotiva isn't Bryston, Krell, or Mc nor have they ever claimed to be. Apples and oranges. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on May 14, 2019 9:53:45 GMT -5
In my world when a piece of our electronic equipment fails or acts up out of warranty, our advice is to scrap and replace, or to negotiate a repair contract with us if they wish. If a user decides to repair themselves then anything that happens is on them and we offer absolutely no support beyond the published specs, for liability reasons.
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Post by pedrocols on May 14, 2019 11:48:21 GMT -5
This is the way I understand topic at hand. As far as the ability of Emotiva to be able to repair one of their products, two things must be in effect. 1. They are currently in production. 2. Or they are under the warranty period. So if the last produced product of a series finally falls out of warranty, Emotiva "divests" itself of the ability/responsibility to repair it. My heartburn is that if, twelve years down the road, one of my obsolete amps requires a repair that I am willing to pay for, Emotiva appears to be saying that they are not interested in that business. That a third party must be employed to do the repair, if Emotiva considers the repair shop worthy of receiving their documentation. Twelve years down the road I am pretty sure you are going to want to upgrade your gear if you still alive. You are concern about really petty stuff if you ask me. |
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Post by novisnick on May 14, 2019 11:56:58 GMT -5
This is the way I understand topic at hand. As far as the ability of Emotiva to be able to repair one of their products, two things must be in effect. 1. They are currently in production. 2. Or they are under the warranty period. So if the last produced product of a series finally falls out of warranty, Emotiva "divests" itself of the ability/responsibility to repair it. My heartburn is that if, twelve years down the road, one of my obsolete amps requires a repair that I am willing to pay for, Emotiva appears to be saying that they are not interested in that business. That a third party must be employed to do the repair, if Emotiva considers the repair shop worthy of receiving their documentation. Twelve years down the road I am pretty sure you are going to want to upgrade your gear if you still alive. You are concern about really petty stuff if you ask me.
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Post by Loop 7 on May 14, 2019 12:05:59 GMT -5
Just get a tube amp.😁 Sorry folks could not help myself. You shouldn't apologize for expressing wisdom. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 14, 2019 12:38:51 GMT -5
Just get a tube amp.😁 Sorry folks could not help myself. You shouldn't apologize for expressing wisdom. While the tube amp might sound better with a given set of speakers, in my experience they also require repair and more maintenance — tubes, biasing, capacitors, etc, — however their designs are usually easier to work on. Though I very much enjoy tube amps and am not knocking them, they are no panacea when it comes needing service (the gist of this thread). I agree that comparing Emotiva to Bryson and McIntosh (while flattering) isn’t appropriate, when money is saved something has to give, parts longevity is one place this can happen. While I don’t like to see support for a product dropped after the warranty expires, if there are repair alternatives and the schematics are available, then it’s no different than a vast quantity of gear that’s been sold over the years ... and it helps keep the mom and pop repair shop down the street open an little longer. |
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Post by amped on May 14, 2019 13:29:36 GMT -5
Yes the XPR can be serviced. Nothing is exotic inside. So relax! Unlike a processor with it the main chip comes from Mars and we can't get it anymore, the XPR uses parts and has equivalents. So the XPR will soldier on for quite some time with the support just about any competent tech can service. It isn't magic folks. It is just a real good amplifier. Man VCAUTOKID I love your ability to pull sunshine out of the darkest reaches of the Universe! You bleed that EMO Blue glow through and through I respect your loyalty (truly I do)! However, I do believe that it was you in a recent thread that spoke to planned obsolescence regarding the ERC line of CD players. The reality is a FLAGSHIP product should far surpass its warranty program. Everyone knows that every manufacturer wants you to buy the newest/latest version of their product, and with regards to EMO amps we all know it was too much overhead that killed the XPR Series and Gen 2 XPAs it wasn't a quality issue nor a sound issue. Too heavy to ship ($$) and not enough margin ($$$) that's why you have the single chassis amps from EMO you have today truly not a knock on the product just a matter of fact. |
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Post by pedrocols on May 14, 2019 13:37:14 GMT -5
Twelve years down the road I am pretty sure you are going to want to upgrade your gear if you still alive. You are concern about really petty stuff if you ask me.
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Post by garbulky on May 14, 2019 14:04:12 GMT -5
There is NO upgrade to the XPR - 1
He's not wrong. I don't have any intention to upgrade my XPA-1 gen 2 to any recent design either. |
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Post by skiman1 on May 14, 2019 15:01:27 GMT -5
I have a pair of XPR-1s and have no intention of ever replacing them. I also still have an NAD 1020 preamp and 2140 power amp powering my desktop speakers. They must be 30 years old, and leave them powered on 24/7, just like my XPR-1s in my home theater are. I suspect they will outlive me.
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Post by copperpipe on May 14, 2019 15:31:53 GMT -5
Y'all have short term tunnel vision if you ask me.
Guaranteed, someone somewhere will come out with something that sounds better than the XPR, and it will weigh 20 pounds (or maybe 120 pounds but they'll just line the case with concrete for all you "can't sound good if it don't break my back" types out there). And guess what, you'll buy it and this XPR discussion will be long forgotten.
It's very foolish and short sighted to think that the XPR/XPA is the last word on high quality affordable amps that sound amazing. This is technology, it keeps moving forwards.
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Post by garbulky on May 14, 2019 16:23:45 GMT -5
Y'all have short term tunnel vision if you ask me. Guaranteed, someone somewhere will come out with something that sounds better than the XPR, and it will weigh 20 pounds (or maybe 120 pounds but they'll just line the case with concrete for all you "can't sound good if it don't break my back" types out there). And guess what, you'll buy it and this XPR discussion will be long forgotten. It's very foolish and short sighted to think that the XPR/XPA is the last word on high quality affordable amps that sound amazing. This is technology, it keeps moving forwards. It's not the last word. There are amps that measure much better (Hypex comes to mind). But for me I've been diligently working for my end-game. I want to reach the point where the sound satisfies me. I have only so much discretionary income, and once I get to a point where I'm satisfied, I move on to the next point in my chain. Power amps are great long term pieces that don't really have to be upgraded imo. Multichannel processors on the other hand of course go out of date like the wind. I would rather focus on thingsd like headphones, speakers, preamps, dacs tvs. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 16:33:07 GMT -5
Y'all have short term tunnel vision if you ask me. Guaranteed, someone somewhere will come out with something that sounds better than the XPR, and it will weigh 20 pounds (or maybe 120 pounds but they'll just line the case with concrete for all you "can't sound good if it don't break my back" types out there). And guess what, you'll buy it and this XPR discussion will be long forgotten. It's very foolish and short sighted to think that the XPR/XPA is the last word on high quality affordable amps that sound amazing. This is technology, it keeps moving forwards. Yes, tech moves forward but so does age. My interest in Emotiva started in 2010 when the cones of my 27-yr old Advent speakers started to break up. My Sony receiver, which I had bought in the year The Sting came out (1973) was still going strong, and 37 years after I bought it I found myself considering replacing it for no good reason. I found the Emo website and, given the great prices and following a brief flirtation with the Outlaw RR2150, I had no chance against the Emo upgrade virus. Do I expect all (or any) of the Emo gear in my footer to last 37 years, as did the Sony? Of course, as much as I expect to live to 2047, when I will be 100, and my hearing will also be excellent, as will my sex life. Seriously, though, upgrades, though tempting (and who knows what I might win at Emofest), are likely over for me, with the possible exception of advances in surgical organ transplants. My current setup supports a strategy of redundancy: if the DC-1 goes, the PT-100 takes over, and vice-versa; if the ERC-2 goes, there's the other player; if a UPA-1 goes, I can sell the modded Maggies and use the Airmotivs. Not optimal in terms of audio quality but likely to match hearing losses; my goal is to have little audio equipment when I become preoccupied with drooling. My younger wife would just put it all on the curb anyway. At least with this plan she won't have the guilt of giving it (the Emo gear) to her new husband. At least that's the plan. |
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Post by highfihoney2 on May 14, 2019 16:38:02 GMT -5
Am I missing something? I am the owner of three DR-1s, former owner of a XPA-1L and will soon be purchasing a XPA-2. This is all the Emotiva product experience I have, and I have never heard the XPR so I may indeed be missing something. First let me say that XPA-1L was my introduction to Emotiva and I bought it on a whim. I wanted a better power source for my CC3 Maggie center because my Rotel never seemed to drive it well. Certain dialogue could get muddy and difficult to understand. For less than $600 I felt it was worth taking a chance on this company that was unknown to me. Since that purchase I replaced my McIntosh MC152 with two DR-1s and I am astounded at the performance of these amps versus the much more expensive McIntosh. I'm not trying to say McIntosh and Rotel make inferior products. I'm just saying in my system the Emotiva products have been a better match and I am quite pleased with them. Now on to what confounds me. A pair of DR-1s are $2800. That is crazy cheap compared to the other brands being mentioned. I can buy five pairs of these for the price of one pair of McIntosh MC611s. Hopefully, these DR-s last for several years and give me many, many hours of enjoyment. Should one of them die out of warranty and be beyond repair this will be at least five years away. If the DR-1 is no longer in production then I am sure I could find one used, or maybe there will be something equally engaging, or maybe even more so. Again, we are talking about a $1400 amp versus a $7000 amp. A five to one ratio. You can blow through five of these before equaling a single MC611. Hopefully the odds of this happening are very low, but it still highlights just how wide the price gap is. As for other budget amps, I cannot comment as I do not have any experience with them. However, that is not what has me confused. Making comparisons of Schiit versus Emotiva would actually make sense to me. Comparing Emotiva to Bryston or McIntosh does not. If you really want a 20 year warranty and the promise of decades of potential repairs then you really need to pony up and buy that Bryston or McIntosh. That is part of what you pay for with that big price tag. Its part of their value proposition. I'm not going to address buying a used premium brand versus Emotiva. That is a whole other discussion and much more complicated. My focus is simply about comparing purchasing new retail price purchasing. Finally, I am not trying to invalidate someone's thoughts, feelings or opinions on this. We all come from a different place. All I'm saying is that I am a very happy Emotiva owner and believe there is a lot of value in their products. Quite frankly I have no idea how they pack in so much performance for the price point. If the trade off is that after the warranty they cannot service my product I am OK with that. I'd hope that would not be the case, but if it is I figure I got a lot great hours of enjoyment for a modest expense. I think some here are confusing " warranty repairs " with providing repair services for the electronics Emotiva makes ,at owners expense,after the warranty expires ,when Emotiva built & sold the XPR-1 Monoblocks ,the XPR- 2 channel and XPR-5 channel they were completing with the big boys of amplification such as Krell & McIntosh for 2 channel,who needs 1,750 watts for their mains in a home theater ? Nobody ,I have 1,200 watt amps driving my mains and I rarely use over 12 watts ,and that's blasting ,if Emotiva dosent offer service for out of warranty gear that would make Emotiva gear alot less desirable for new buyers . Right now it's the XPR-1 , 2 and 5 ,but what about Emotivas current reference line of amps 5 years from now ,and Emotivas super expensive processors,also what about legacy buyers who are brand loyal,I left McIntosh for Emotiva because every indication & review was that Emotiva was a company that stands behind it's products ,when buyers build hifi's costing $50,000 and up it's not an unfounded expectation for manufacturers to repair the company's Most powerful & expensive " Reference line " long after warranty expires ,sitting here remembering my audio journey of 40 years I can't think of a single manufacturer of Reference quality audio equipment who dosent repair the products they discontinued ,I wonder how owners of the XPA line would feel if Emotiva no longer serviced gen 1 amps . This isn't some wild insane expectation I have,it's industry standard with every last manufacturer of Reference quality amplification ,what would be the incentive to buy Emotiva amps when we can buy Crown or other pro amps with insane wattages at half or 1/3 the price ? I'm flabbergasted that this hasn't gotten addressed better by Emotiva Corporate ,using McIntosh & Krell as a comparison because they built the bulk of my gear I offer this ,if Mcintosh can source parts for 50 year old tube amps Mc-1000 Monoblocks made in 1990 & Krell will still service my KMA Monoblocks I bought around 1980 ,the amps aren't made of pixie dust,unicorn tears & unobtanium ,it's just electrical components ,the fact that McIntosh ,Krell & Bryston routinely replace 30 year old boards & caps tells us that it's definitely doable ,nobody/I don't expect free repairs but I'm not in the wrong expecting a company as big as Emotiva to repair the equipment they sell after warranty's expire ,if they won't repair the XPR line there's gonna be thousands of disgruntled Emotiva owners who will never buy an Emo product again & that's bad. |
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