XMC-2 Audio problems

[bastille]

Anyone else experiencing a 1 second delay every time you start a song or video or when a song or video changes to next? I am getting it from all sources and inputs. HDMI, Optical, USB. Sources are Blu Ray, Surface Pro, TV apps. Below is a couple videos detailing the problem. First video shows what the video actually plas while the 2nd video shows the XMC via USB from surface pro. I sent the info to support but my 30 day return period is approaching and I want to make sure I get as much info on this before making my decision. For me it is a deal breaker with no signs of the firmware upgrade yet.

First vid first work you hear after change is "Bloomberg" but as 2nd video shows he says "So Michael Bloomberg". In tidal and other music apps the first few notes are skipped. Once in a blue moon it works. Maybe 1 out of 10 times as the 2nd refresh shows. But reverts right back to skipping.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5T-jw2tx78


2nd vid audio with XMC on standby and sound sent to TV speakers.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQiWXuD2UQs

[AudioHTIT]

In both the Official XMC-2 and RMC-1 threads you'll find reference to the thread below, it lists best practices and known issues, the problem you describe is one of them. I'd suggest discussing in the Official XMC-2 thread.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/54086/issues-firmware-updates-equipment-lists

Welcome to the Lounge bastille!

[bastille]

Nov 12, 2019 21:11:16 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

In both the Official XMC-2 and RMC-1 threads you'll find reference to the thread below, it lists best practices and known issues, the problem you describe is one of them. I'd suggest discussing in the Official XMC-2 thread.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/54086/issues-firmware-updates-equipment-lists

Welcome to the Lounge bastille!

Thanks. I saw the thread. I dont see many solutions. Ive tried all the best practices. Seems another post will get hidden in there. I think this thing is going back if i dont hear anything via support by friday.

[emofrmcgy]

Nov 12, 2019 22:26:01 GMT -5 bastille said:

Nov 12, 2019 21:11:16 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

In both the Official XMC-2 and RMC-1 threads you'll find reference to the thread below, it lists best practices and known issues, the problem you describe is one of them. I'd suggest discussing in the Official XMC-2 thread.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/54086/issues-firmware-updates-equipment-lists

Welcome to the Lounge bastille!

Thanks. I saw the thread. I dont see many solutions. Ive tried all the best practices. Seems another post will get hidden in there. I think this thing is going back if i dont hear anything via support by friday.

I thought the 30 day trial didn't start until Dirac was delivered ?

[bastille]

Nov 12, 2019 22:31:24 GMT -5 emofrmcgy said:

Nov 12, 2019 22:26:01 GMT -5 bastille said:

Thanks. I saw the thread. I dont see many solutions. Ive tried all the best practices. Seems another post will get hidden in there. I think this thing is going back if i dont hear anything via support by friday.

I thought the 30 day trial didn't start until Dirac was delivered ?

Is that confirmed? Im more concerned that the XMC-1  seems to share similar unresolved issues.

[emofrmcgy]

Nov 12, 2019 22:50:21 GMT -5 bastille said:

Nov 12, 2019 22:31:24 GMT -5 emofrmcgy said:

I thought the 30 day trial didn't start until Dirac was delivered ?

Is that confirmed? Im more concerned that the XMC-1  seems to share similar unresolved issues.

I thought it was... Be best to contact support to double check.

[bastille]

Here's another bug. Apparently you have to turn everything off all the time. Or I guess leave everything on all the time. I had my PC on and the emotiva in standby. When turning on the emotiva this error pops up. I then have to play the guessing game on what order everything needs to be rebooted.

[cawgijoe]

I just traded in an XMC-1 for the XMC-2. Just got it yesterday and have not set up yet, so no comments yet.

I just wanted to state that the XMC-1 has been extremely stable for me especially since the last firmware update. The only "complaint" I might have would be the time it takes to switch between inputs. I have gotten used to this and it really does not bother me anymore. No audio/video delay.

My system is pretty standard in that I only have one TV connected. I don't use CEC and rarely connect a PC to it. My daughter will connect a PC when she comes for holidays to play certain shows, movies, and it has worked fine.

I would call Emotiva and ask to speak to the technical folks before you return the unit. I've found them easy to talk to and very willing to work through individual problems. Don't rely on email, CALL.

[AudioHTIT]

Nov 12, 2019 22:26:01 GMT -5 bastille said:

Nov 12, 2019 21:11:16 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

In both the Official XMC-2 and RMC-1 threads you'll find reference to the thread below, it lists best practices and known issues, the problem you describe is one of them. I'd suggest discussing in the Official XMC-2 thread.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/54086/issues-firmware-updates-equipment-lists

Welcome to the Lounge bastille!

Thanks. I saw the thread. I dont see many solutions. Ive tried all the best practices. Seems another post will get hidden in there. I think this thing is going back if i dont hear anything via support by friday.

Yes, it’s on the known issues list (in black, meaning unresolved), there’s no real solution that I’m aware of except that some players do a better job of gapless playback, but that’s more typically within albums, not random songs. They’ve explained it’s a timing issue between removing chirps and missing the beginnings, but that doesn’t help, it’s is annoying. Calling is your best avenue.

[Bonzo]

Nov 13, 2019 9:15:57 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

Nov 12, 2019 22:26:01 GMT -5 bastille said:

Thanks. I saw the thread. I dont see many solutions. Ive tried all the best practices. Seems another post will get hidden in there. I think this thing is going back if i dont hear anything via support by friday.

Yes, it’s on the known issues list (in black, meaning unresolved), there’s no real solution that I’m aware of except that some players do a better job of gapless playback, but that’s more typically within albums, not random songs. They’ve explained it’s a timing issue between removing chirps and missing the beginnings, but that doesn’t help, it’s is annoying. Calling is your best avenue.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this was also an issue on the XMC-1, at least in the beginning. I remember it because it was among about 5 reason why I didn't get an XMC-1. I find this issue to be more than "annoying." I say it's completely unacceptable, to me at least.

It's also been reported in a little different form on the ERC-4, that it puts gaps between tracks on CD's when there shouldn't be. Like live concert recordings etc.

Seems to me that the 2 issues are related, at least a little bit. Which then leads me to think that no one at Emotiva knows how to do it properly. This is a similar thing to a very common issue on old computers back circa 2000 when CD-Rs first started to become main stream. When you recorded live show CD's the computer burners would always insert a gap. But that issue got resolved. Perhaps finding out how that fix was made might help here? I dunno, but dropping music bits and inserting gaps is not something I can live with. I wish I could.

[millst]

Issues with gapless, digital silence, [un]muting, etc. seem to be part of Emotiva's DNA. Several long threads across the lineup. They said it couldn't be fixed with the XMC-1, then released new processors with the same issue. Probably need to accept it or move on to another processor.

[KeithL]

First off, the trade-off between occasionally passing unpleasant noises, and muting too aggressively, is a judgment call... plain and simple.

(We will continue to seek a compromise that produces more universally satisfying results. And it is your right to disagree with the choice we've made so far.)

The reality is that almost all commercially recorded audio tracks include a "lead in" that consists of either several seconds of dithered silence or a gradual ramp up in volume.

In both cases the audio level increases gradually enough that muting is disabled long before the audio reaches an audible level.

So, in both of those cases, the "muting issue" has no audible effect whatsoever.

However, you chose an interesting example by mentioning "how computers used to copy CDs".

The reality is that those computers were NOT "doing it wrong".

And many modern CD burning programs offer the option of whether to insert standard gaps between tracks or not.

In fact, according to the standard, the most commonly used method for writing tracks onto a CD ("track-at-once") is supposed to leave gaps between tracks.

("Gapless playback" is a specific way of overriding the standard because you, or the producers of the disc, prefer to do it a different non-standard way)

If you have a CD with non-standard track timing you wish to preserve then the simplest way to do so is to do an "image copy" of the disc.

This will create an exact copy of the original... and is generally the preferred method for copying an entire disc.

(My personal preference for doing so is a totally free program called ImgBurn.)

However, even if you're writing individual tracks, which means that you are "authoring" a disc rather than simply copying it, then you can avoid gaps several different ways:

- If you're making a live recording, or transcribing an analog source, simply record the disc as a single track.

(Some older discs used a method for creating "sub-indices" inside each track - but this is rarely used or supported any more.)

- Record the disc as separate tracks, but specify a "zero gap time" between tracks, or a "negative start time" on subsequent tracks when you wish a zero gap.

(Some programs insert a standard gap by default, which cannot be overridden, but you can sometimes cancel this out by specifying a negative start time relative to the end of the specified gap.)

- Some authoring programs offer different methods for recording discs.

(If they do, "track-at-once" normally adds standard gaps, while "disc-at-once" sometimes relies on their being included in the individual tracks.)

- If the program you use doesn't mention any of these options then you should probably use a separate "authoring program" that offers more detailed control over the process.

Therefore, what you're talking about is not "right and wrong", and it's not a limitation of the computer or the CD recorder itself.

The program you have chosen to use is doing its best to make a complex process appear simple - and you are unhappy with some of the choices it has made in order to do so.

(So either choose a more sophisticated program which offers you full control, or choose a different simple program that does it the way you would prefer.)

(And, yes, consumer CD players make similar choices on your behalf, because most consumers prefer to avoid entering a page of configuration parameters for "a simple CD player".)

Nov 13, 2019 9:56:38 GMT -5 Bonzo said:

Nov 13, 2019 9:15:57 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

Yes, it’s on the known issues list (in black, meaning unresolved), there’s no real solution that I’m aware of except that some players do a better job of gapless playback, but that’s more typically within albums, not random songs. They’ve explained it’s a timing issue between removing chirps and missing the beginnings, but that doesn’t help, it’s is annoying. Calling is your best avenue.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this was also an issue on the XMC-1, at least in the beginning. I remember it because it was among about 5 reason why I didn't get an XMC-1. I find this issue to be more than "annoying." I say it's completely unacceptable, to me at least.

It's also been reported in a little different form on the ERC-4, that it puts gaps between tracks on CD's when there shouldn't be. Like live concert recordings etc.

Seems to me that the 2 issues are related, at least a little bit. Which then leads me to think that no one at Emotiva knows how to do it properly. This is a similar thing to a very common issue on old computers back circa 2000 when CD-Rs first started to become main stream. When you recorded live show CD's the computer burners would always insert a gap. But that issue got resolved. Perhaps finding out how that fix was made might help here? I dunno, but dropping music bits and inserting gaps is not something I can live with. I wish I could.

[KeithL]

What you're talking about here is NOT "gap-less playback".

(What we're talking about here is the time it takes muting to release once the beginning of the music is detected.)

Gap-less playback refers to whether the playback program or device inserts a second or two of silence between subsequent tracks.

(It is exactly the same as if an editor said "let's insert a short track with a few seconds of silence in it between these tracks".)

On many commercial CDs there is actually a second or two of silence at the beginning and/or end of each track.

However, in addition to this, the standard way to play multiple tracks is to insert an additional second or two of silence between the end of one and the beginning of the next.

This ensures that the two songs don't run together - even if a lead-in or-lead out time was omitted from the tracks themselves.

This is strictly a feature of the device or program that is doing the playback....

(In order to insert a gap you must actually delay the start of the later track... which only the source can do.)

Many player programs (like jRiver) offer the option of adding a gap or not.

(Some also allow you to choose the length or to specify that tracks actually overlap and fade one into another.)

Nov 13, 2019 9:15:57 GMT -5 AudioHTIT said:

Nov 12, 2019 22:26:01 GMT -5 bastille said:

Thanks. I saw the thread. I dont see many solutions. Ive tried all the best practices. Seems another post will get hidden in there. I think this thing is going back if i dont hear anything via support by friday.

Yes, it’s on the known issues list (in black, meaning unresolved), there’s no real solution that I’m aware of except that some players do a better job of gapless playback, but that’s more typically within albums, not random songs. They’ve explained it’s a timing issue between removing chirps and missing the beginnings, but that doesn’t help, it’s is annoying. Calling is your best avenue.

[bastille]

I gave up. RMA'd it. Too bad because it sounds great. Clearly no solution in site given how long these issues have been talked about here. I was willing to give up ARC but cutting out the first second of sound is an unacceptable issue. I hope Emotiva figures this out. I bought 2 of the amps too which means my OCD is going to be off the charts with a different brand receiver/pro.

[Bonzo]

Nov 13, 2019 11:52:43 GMT -5 KeithL said:

First off, the trade-off between occasionally passing unpleasant noises, and muting too aggressively, is a judgment call... plain and simple.

(We will continue to seek a compromise that produces more universally satisfying results. And it is your right to disagree with the choice we've made so far.)

But it's not that simple. Nobody else has this problem. Well, okay, maybe not "nobody", but "MOST" certainly do not, for sure. It's an Emotiva glitch (or decision as you say). So in my opinion you are either doing it wrong, or you don't know how to do it properly (like most everyone else does).

I have not heard the ERC-4, but it has been reported that it in fact inserts a gap between tracks of live recordings. If it does in fact reliably do this, then you guys designed it wrong, plain and simple.

The reality is that almost all commercially recorded audio tracks include a "lead in" that consists of either several seconds of dithered silence or a gradual ramp up in volume.

In both cases the audio level increases gradually enough that muting is disabled long before the audio reaches an audible level.

So, in both of those cases, the "muting issue" has no audible effect whatsoever.

However, you chose an interesting example by mentioning "how computers used to copy CDs".

The reality is that those computers were NOT "doing it wrong".

And many modern CD burning programs offer the option of whether to insert standard gaps between tracks or not.

In fact, according to the standard, the most commonly used method for writing tracks onto a CD ("track-at-once") is supposed to leave gaps between tracks.

("Gapless playback" is a specific way of overriding the standard because you, or the producers of the disc, prefer to do it a different non-standard way)

If you have a CD with non-standard track timing you wish to preserve then the simplest way to do so is to do an "image copy" of the disc.

This will create an exact copy of the original... and is generally the preferred method for copying an entire disc.

(My personal preference for doing so is a totally free program called ImgBurn.)

However, even if you're writing individual tracks, which means that you are "authoring" a disc rather than simply copying it, then you can avoid gaps several different ways:

- If you're making a live recording, or transcribing an analog source, simply record the disc as a single track.

(Some older discs used a method for creating "sub-indices" inside each track - but this is rarely used or supported any more.)

- Record the disc as separate tracks, but specify a "zero gap time" between tracks, or a "negative start time" on subsequent tracks when you wish a zero gap.

(Some programs insert a standard gap by default, which cannot be overridden, but you can sometimes cancel this out by specifying a negative start time relative to the end of the specified gap.)

- Some authoring programs offer different methods for recording discs.

(If they do, "track-at-once" normally adds standard gaps, while "disc-at-once" sometimes relies on their being included in the individual tracks.)

- If the program you use doesn't mention any of these options then you should probably use a separate "authoring program" that offers more detailed control over the process.

Therefore, what you're talking about is not "right and wrong", and it's not a limitation of the computer or the CD recorder itself.

The program you have chosen to use is doing its best to make a complex process appear simple - and you are unhappy with some of the choices it has made in order to do so.

(So either choose a more sophisticated program which offers you full control, or choose a different simple program that does it the way you would prefer.)

(And, yes, consumer CD players make similar choices on your behalf, because most consumers prefer to avoid entering a page of configuration parameters for "a simple CD player".)

You took my example and ran way too far into the future. Your post is dead accurate for now, in 2019, and for many years past. Yes, I think we all know how to insert or remove gaps now. But it is completely inaccurate for back around 1998-2000 or so when making CD recordings first became popular. Back then, computers DID in fact, insert gaps between tracks of live recordings. There was no way to stop it. I'm talking about taking a Grateful Dead live CD and ripping a copy. Back in 1999 there was no way to preserve "tracks" without the insertion of a gap. One of my friends at the time was a complete computer nerd and live music lover. This fact drove him nuts. He searched high and low for a ripping program that didn't do this and he couldn't. My solution was to buy my Pioneer CD Recorder that I still have and use to this day.

I only used this as an example of it being an issue way back when. I know it's not the exact same as cutting off the first second of a song, but it's similar.

Seemingly everyone except Emotiva has figured out how to fix the drop issue. So I'd say you are clearly making the wrong decision or don't know how to fix it. JMO of course.

[Bonzo]

Off the main topic but since it's in line to what we are discussing....

KeithL, at least one person posted this about the ERC-4. I know you have plenty of Grateful Dead CD's so testing should be easy.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1008045/thread

Can you confirm or deny this to be true?

[Lsc]

I have the muting of the first second as well and it’s dependent on the source. I had it like crazy on my ATV4K but now I don’t.

When I had an Onkyo receiver I had this problem too.

I’m not sure what’s causing it but it’s something I just expect. I can just rewind it if I want to listen from the beginning.

I understand pet peeves though and this can be a real deal breaker for some folks especially if they are more OCD than I am. And I am pretty OCD.

I do agree as much as I hate to say that Emotiva doesn’t seem to employ or contract the most experienced developers- this is purely a guess on my part. I work in IT and I know that not all developers or contractors have the same skill sets. So if this is truly an Emotiva problem, then perhaps seek out a product that doesn’t have this issue and see how it’s managed.

I’m saying this for others....I don’t really care - still 3:58 seconds left in the song 😎

[bastille]

RE: KeithL

Maybe I'm reading your posts wrong but it sounds like you are saying that you have decided that it is OK to implement a system that cuts out the first ~500-1k MS of every song in what is supposed to be a $3000(and$4k and $5k)audiophile systems? Are you sure thats the answer you want to give here?

[405x5]

Nov 12, 2019 20:49:04 GMT -5 bastille said:

Anyone else experiencing a 1 second delay every time you start a song or video or when a song or video changes to next? I am getting it from all sources and inputs. HDMI, Optical, USB. Sources are Blu Ray, Surface Pro, TV apps. Below is a couple videos detailing the problem. First video shows what the video actually plas while the 2nd video shows the XMC via USB from surface pro. I sent the info to support but my 30 day return period is approaching and I want to make sure I get as much info on this before making my decision. For me it is a deal breaker with no signs of the firmware upgrade yet.

First vid first work you hear after change is "Bloomberg" but as 2nd video shows he says "So Michael Bloomberg". In tidal and other music apps the first few notes are skipped. Once in a blue moon it works. Maybe 1 out of 10 times as the 2nd refresh shows. But reverts right back to skipping.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5T-jw2tx78


2nd vid audio with XMC on standby and sound sent to TV speakers.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQiWXuD2UQs

Oh boy....for me this story is Deja Vu all over again.
I sure hope you are able to come up with a component combination and XMC2 firmware update that resolves this for you.
I had this early on with the XMC1 playing CD’s Via HDMI.
Firmware updates have virtually (98 percent) solved the problem, but for my setup, the only way to nix the problem completely is to play my CD’s via analog or digital coax.
God bless HDMI....I like it and HATE it at the same time.

Bill

[bastille]

I have the unit playing through a playlist right now as I work and the problem right now is manifesting in many songs as a quick blip of sound to start the next song, followed by a ~500-1kms muting and then resumes. I also work in IT and formerly a programmer as well and what it feels like to me is improper buffer handling.