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Post by hsamwel on Mar 10, 2023 17:00:17 GMT -5
Lucky for them that most software only has to work on a limited number or combinations of platforms... The main problem we have is that HDMI devices are so "aggressively interactive" - they "insist" on interacting quite heavily with each other. And, of course, what's actually "going on inside" with HDMI is absurdly complicated. And, to make matters worse, the standards themselves are extremely complex, and include many areas with a lot of "wiggle room". Together this means that even devices that individually appear to comply perfectly with the standards may refuse to work properly together... And you often discover unexpected issues when you try specific combinations of sources, displays, processing circuitry, and code. So, even if our processor follows the standard, it may still not work properly with some other devices, or with specific combinations of other devices. The problem is that there are an almost infinite number of possible combinations of HDMI sources and displays... And, of course, for many of them, there are a large number of internal variations and firmware revisions too... (Just start counting how many models, internal chip sets, and firmware versions, you can have with "a simple little AppleTV box".) So, no matter how many people we have beta testing, we can only test a tiny percentage of the total possible combinations of other gear with our processors... (And we're not in a situation where it's practical to have, and keep track of, even a few thousand beta testers.) I'll also take the opportunity to say that expectations have changed. I can still recall the days when computers were "new, expensive, and complex technology"... When you bought a server-grade SCSI drive both the drive and the controller card that went with it complied with the standard... (This is back when a server-rated SCSI hard drive cost $3000 and a high-end SCSI controller card was $800... which together was about the price of a new car.) Yet, even though both the drive and the controller complied with a standard, each manufacturer included a list of compatible devices... And it was... strongly recommended... by both manufacturers that you "stick to products that were on their list". (Imagine if every TV came with a list of sources it would work with and every Blu-Ray player came with a list of compatible TV sets.) Things have gotten a lot better... but modern products and standards have also gotten far more complicated... And, back in the 90's, power plants were a lot simpler too... And, back then, you didn't have to worry about things like StuxNet (at least not much)... More beta testers might not help things. Maybe you could have people apply, and choose based on hardware configurations to cast a broader net over the HDMI beast. But we do get very hung up on HDMI being the huge variable that it is. There are also non-video sources and the behavior of non-HDMI-related functions ... like Bass Management, PEQ, Dirac, Loudness, Audio Modes, speaker configurations .... lots of variables but nowhere near as daunting as HDMI ... and I believe all of which have had issues of one sort or another in the past. Yeah the photo software just has to deal with a few Operating System versions, Processor and GPU combinations ... and quite a few proprietary RAW files to decode. The power plants ... well back then we were sometimes upgrading 1st gen digital, but often analog and even pneumatic systems. Windows 3.1 and then 95 and NT ... and woohoo the first Pentium processors! The Beta was the first customer ... that was it. Yes, I agree fully. Some have less issues with the same type of hardware. I don’t think they have thousands of beta testers. Just better code base to work with. Easier to code and find issues with. Emotiva have some core issues. I think not doing this generation code from scratch have been one of the biggest reasons. Just having to fix things for several years instead of moving forward must be frustrating for them (and us). Then the Dirac thing that probably sucked a lot of progress. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 10, 2023 18:07:39 GMT -5
I'm afraid you really don't understand the complexity of a modern processor. It's nothing like the old days where a single processor was handling everything. There is a lot going on... and a lot of things that have to work with, and interact with, each other in real time. For example, in our "pre/pros", there are several different processors, each doing different things, and even running on different operating systems. The HDMI switches themselves are a sort of video processor, running their own internal operating system, and THEY handle overlaying the menu over the video signal. The audio DSP is essentially its own processor... The front panel has a separate dedicated processor... And the Linux processor manages the other processors... (The block diagram is quite complicated.) And the reason things act differently when your display is off is that we don't have to update the display or do handshakes with it. (And the menu is often slow because the processor that controls it has to wait for other things to happen...) I wish they could get a Linux guru in house to just fix these issues and clean up the GUI. The menu I find to be very slow. This is my first pre/pro from them and it may be my last. Just to many bugs, and slow software bug fixes. But that may just be me. They have told us for years that this is not possible. They have a live updated menu system. I guess every time you move inside it it checks for changes and updates. Even in places where it doesn’t need live updates. It’s extremely annoying. I have actually not seen such a slow interface since the early ’90s.. But I think this isn’t the biggest issue. The GUI overlay system that let’s you have live video seen through it is the biggest CPU hogger. The processors doesn’t seem to have a GPU that can handle this in hardware so when the CPU have to handle it it becomes really slow just like it did in the past with Windows (3.1 and 95/98) when the CPUs handled video overlay. To me it feels like they have this really fast multi core CPU but only drive it with a single core. Everything just feels so slow compared to what’s actually shown on screen. Simple text based, MSDOS like system. Still takes 2-3 seconds to do a screen redraw. If you turn off the TV/projector and move around in the setup you’ll notice the difference when watching the front display of the processors. |
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 10, 2023 23:37:44 GMT -5
I'm afraid you really don't understand the complexity of a modern processor. It's nothing like the old days where a single processor was handling everything. There is a lot going on... and a lot of things that have to work with, and interact with, each other in real time. For example, in our "pre/pros", there are several different processors, each doing different things, and even running on different operating systems. The HDMI switches themselves are a sort of video processor, running their own internal operating system, and THEY handle overlaying the menu over the video signal. The audio DSP is essentially its own processor... The front panel has a separate dedicated processor... And the Linux processor manages the other processors... (The block diagram is quite complicated.) And the reason things act differently when your display is off is that we don't have to update the display or do handshakes with it. (And the menu is often slow because the processor that controls it has to wait for other things to happen...) They have told us for years that this is not possible. They have a live updated menu system. I guess every time you move inside it it checks for changes and updates. Even in places where it doesn’t need live updates. It’s extremely annoying. I have actually not seen such a slow interface since the early ’90s.. But I think this isn’t the biggest issue. The GUI overlay system that let’s you have live video seen through it is the biggest CPU hogger. The processors doesn’t seem to have a GPU that can handle this in hardware so when the CPU have to handle it it becomes really slow just like it did in the past with Windows (3.1 and 95/98) when the CPUs handled video overlay. To me it feels like they have this really fast multi core CPU but only drive it with a single core. Everything just feels so slow compared to what’s actually shown on screen. Simple text based, MSDOS like system. Still takes 2-3 seconds to do a screen redraw. If you turn off the TV/projector and move around in the setup you’ll notice the difference when watching the front display of the processors. But why do other manufacturers using the same panasonic hdmi chip not have such a slow GUI handling? Yes I understand most chips are SoC chips. But there must be something wrong if it does redraws that slow. Either how they are contolled or how data is distributed in the system. Or is the system simply too slow for what it’s meant to be doing? Maybe you could explain the reason, please? And please no ”it’s fast enough for most”.. While it’s usable you still must admit it’s quite slow updating compared to pretty much anything with a GUI out on the market today. Just would like to know if there are reasons for this that are legit. Legit being hardware limitations. |
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Post by modicen on Mar 11, 2023 13:46:09 GMT -5
Why doesn’t Emotiva just put the fix for the font issue on the firmware page? Why should someone have to ask for it if Emo knows it’s an issue, Seems backwards to me.
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cawgijoe
Emo VIPs 
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
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Post by cawgijoe on Mar 11, 2023 22:45:09 GMT -5
Why doesn’t Emotiva just put the fix for the font issue on the firmware page? Why should someone have to ask for it if Emo knows it’s an issue, Seems backwards to me. For one, it’s a beta. However, they could put it out there with a disclaimer…. |
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 12, 2023 11:17:29 GMT -5
Why doesn’t Emotiva just put the fix for the font issue on the firmware page? Why should someone have to ask for it if Emo knows it’s an issue, Seems backwards to me. For one, it’s a beta. However, they could put it out there with a disclaimer…. That would be better for sure.. But.. Although after all this time in the ”wild” they should know the beta is more stable than 3.1. So IMO it should rather be released as 3.2. Then Emotiva can work without having the ”fonts issue” being brought up all the time.. Having both the fonts issue and instability on the latest ”stable” release is not good. Especially after (soon) 6 months since its release. |
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Post by JKCashin on Mar 13, 2023 0:00:14 GMT -5
I only log in once a day now to see if there's new firmware. Spouse is not impressed.
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Post by novisnick on Mar 13, 2023 12:59:24 GMT -5
Still missing a column, (Too Scared to try!)
With only a 7 point difference between 1st & 2nd I’m still not willing to try.
Let give it another go Emotiva! I’m rooting for all of us!
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cawgijoe
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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,035
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Post by cawgijoe on Mar 13, 2023 13:26:33 GMT -5
Still missing a column, (Too Scared to try!)
With only a 7 point difference between 1st & 2nd I’m still not willing to try.
Let give it another go Emotiva! I’m rooting for all of us! Come on nick! Live life on the edge!.. |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Mar 16, 2023 13:24:36 GMT -5
You seem to have this odd idea that "it's taking a long time to draw the images on the screen"... but that's not the situation at all. It's all the other stuff that's going on behind the scenes, before there's anything to update on the screen, that takes the time... I'm afraid you really don't understand the complexity of a modern processor. It's nothing like the old days where a single processor was handling everything. There is a lot going on... and a lot of things that have to work with, and interact with, each other in real time. For example, in our "pre/pros", there are several different processors, each doing different things, and even running on different operating systems. The HDMI switches themselves are a sort of video processor, running their own internal operating system, and THEY handle overlaying the menu over the video signal. The audio DSP is essentially its own processor... The front panel has a separate dedicated processor... And the Linux processor manages the other processors... (The block diagram is quite complicated.) And the reason things act differently when your display is off is that we don't have to update the display or do handshakes with it. (And the menu is often slow because the processor that controls it has to wait for other things to happen...) But why do other manufacturers using the same panasonic hdmi chip not have such a slow GUI handling? Yes I understand most chips are SoC chips. But there must be something wrong if it does redraws that slow. Either how they are contolled or how data is distributed in the system. Or is the system simply too slow for what it’s meant to be doing? Maybe you could explain the reason, please? And please no ”it’s fast enough for most”.. While it’s usable you still must admit it’s quite slow updating compared to pretty much anything with a GUI out on the market today. Just would like to know if there are reasons for this that are legit. Legit being hardware limitations. |
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 18, 2023 7:13:54 GMT -5
You seem to have this odd idea that "it's taking a long time to draw the images on the screen"... but that's not the situation at all. It's all the other stuff that's going on behind the scenes, before there's anything to update on the screen, that takes the time... But why do other manufacturers using the same panasonic hdmi chip not have such a slow GUI handling? Yes I understand most chips are SoC chips. But there must be something wrong if it does redraws that slow. Either how they are contolled or how data is distributed in the system. Or is the system simply too slow for what it’s meant to be doing? Maybe you could explain the reason, please? And please no ”it’s fast enough for most”.. While it’s usable you still must admit it’s quite slow updating compared to pretty much anything with a GUI out on the market today. Just would like to know if there are reasons for this that are legit. Legit being hardware limitations. Yes of course you do a lot of other things in the background.. But the redraw of the screen takes ages also.. Are you denying that? I can follow it line by line as it draws.. It shouldn’t be that slow. If that’s normal then Dan’s promise of a super fast processor when RMC-1 was presented was false? It’s really slow then! What ”other stuff” are you guys doing that no one else does? Live update? Text based (only) menus? Settings overlay over live video? I wonder the thought process here.. Why have live video beneth the settings menu? You need 3 times, maybe 5 times the processor power to do this instead of an own screen without live update.. Or am I wrong? The menu only gets slow when the menu has more than three lines of menu options to draw. When you first press menu and cycle through the main options it doesn’t seem to have any percieved lagging. It almost seems like a buffer issue, a too small buffer for the amount drawn on the screen. Please do explain why. I am only a user. I notice things when I use them, how it’s done in the background is really not interesting to me. Other than it’s correctly done. To me, and most others I guess, a GUI should be smooth and intuitive to use. Lagging is the worst thing of all IMO. |
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Post by geebo on Mar 18, 2023 9:57:50 GMT -5
You seem to have this odd idea that "it's taking a long time to draw the images on the screen"... but that's not the situation at all. It's all the other stuff that's going on behind the scenes, before there's anything to update on the screen, that takes the time... Yes of course you do a lot of other things in the background.. But the redraw of the screen takes ages also.. Are you denying that? I can follow it line by line as it draws.. It shouldn’t be that slow. If that’s normal then Dan’s promise of a super fast processor when RMC-1 was presented was false? It’s really slow then! What ”other stuff” are you guys doing that no one else does? Live update? Text based (only) menus? Settings overlay over live video? I wonder the thought process here.. Why have live video beneth the settings menu? You need 3 times, maybe 5 times the processor power to do this instead of an own screen without live update.. Or am I wrong? The menu only gets slow when the menu has more than three lines of menu options to draw. When you first press menu and cycle through the main options it doesn’t seem to have any percieved lagging. It almost seems like a buffer issue, a too small buffer for the amount drawn on the screen. Please do explain why. I am only a user. I notice things when I use them, how it’s done in the background is really not interesting to me. Other than it’s correctly done. To me, and most others I guess, a GUI should be smooth and intuitive to use. Lagging is the worst thing of all IMO. I've had an RMC-1L since it first became available and have never seen menu behavior like you're seeing. I'd be happy to try and duplicate if you can give me a scenario under which it occurs. |
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 18, 2023 10:36:35 GMT -5
Yes of course you do a lot of other things in the background.. But the redraw of the screen takes ages also.. Are you denying that? I can follow it line by line as it draws.. It shouldn’t be that slow. If that’s normal then Dan’s promise of a super fast processor when RMC-1 was presented was false? It’s really slow then! What ”other stuff” are you guys doing that no one else does? Live update? Text based (only) menus? Settings overlay over live video? I wonder the thought process here.. Why have live video beneth the settings menu? You need 3 times, maybe 5 times the processor power to do this instead of an own screen without live update.. Or am I wrong? The menu only gets slow when the menu has more than three lines of menu options to draw. When you first press menu and cycle through the main options it doesn’t seem to have any percieved lagging. It almost seems like a buffer issue, a too small buffer for the amount drawn on the screen. Please do explain why. I am only a user. I notice things when I use them, how it’s done in the background is really not interesting to me. Other than it’s correctly done. To me, and most others I guess, a GUI should be smooth and intuitive to use. Lagging is the worst thing of all IMO. I've had an RMC-1L since it first became available and have never seen menu behavior like you're seeing. I'd be happy to try and duplicate if you can give me a scenario under which it occurs. You can stop this already.. I have had this talk before with others that said the same. Proved to me with videos that they have the same speed as me. I have even seen Damon demo the processors with the same menu speed I have.. SLOW! This is simply expectation! I expect the redraw to be fast and almost instant when they are simple text based and just two colors. Not 1.5-2 seconds between each screen update. Manufacturers can be smart about it also. OPPO for example added a small delay when you moved around in the menus. Probably hiding some of the delay they had and also made everything smoother. You can enter the setup and go into preferences or advanced which are full menus. Then move up and down. Tell me you have instant redraw there and I’m happy to be proved wrong. The redraw should behave like interlace and you’ll see each line of text being drawn one by one. If not please do a video and post it. |
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Post by geebo on Mar 18, 2023 11:11:04 GMT -5
I've had an RMC-1L since it first became available and have never seen menu behavior like you're seeing. I'd be happy to try and duplicate if you can give me a scenario under which it occurs. You can stop this already.. I have had this talk before with others that said the same. Proved to me with videos that they have the same speed as me. I have even seen Damon demo the processors with the same menu speed I have.. SLOW! This is simply expectation! I expect the redraw to be fast and almost instant when they are simple text based and just two colors. Not 1.5-2 seconds between each screen update. Manufacturers can be smart about it also. OPPO for example added a small delay when you moved around in the menus. Probably hiding some of the delay they had and also made everything smoother. You can enter the setup and go into preferences or advanced which are full menus. Then move up and down. Tell me you have instant redraw there and I’m happy to be proved wrong. The redraw should behave like interlace and you’ll see each line of text being drawn one by one. If not please do a video and post it. Wow, just trying to help. Please accept my apology and I promise not to try again. |
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LCSeminole
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Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Mar 18, 2023 11:13:24 GMT -5
I've had an RMC-1L since it first became available and have never seen menu behavior like you're seeing. I'd be happy to try and duplicate if you can give me a scenario under which it occurs. You can stop this already.. I have had this talk before with others that said the same. Proved to me with videos that they have the same speed as me. I have even seen Damon demo the processors with the same menu speed I have.. SLOW! This is simply expectation! I expect the redraw to be fast and almost instant when they are simple text based and just two colors. Not 1.5-2 seconds between each screen update. Manufacturers can be smart about it also. OPPO for example added a small delay when you moved around in the menus. Probably hiding some of the delay they had and also made everything smoother. You can enter the setup and go into preferences or advanced which are full menus. Then move up and down. Tell me you have instant redraw there and I’m happy to be proved wrong. The redraw should behave like interlace and you’ll see each line of text being drawn one by one. If not please do a video and post it. Honest question, it’s obvious you have never been happy with your RMC-1, so why have you not gone in a different direction with another processor manufacturer? I know what I have done in the past when unhappy with any product. To me life is too short to be unhappy for extended amounts of time, so I end up taking a path that will make me happy. I’ve done this several times as a home theater enthusiasts and I’m all the better for it. |
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 18, 2023 12:31:09 GMT -5
You can stop this already.. I have had this talk before with others that said the same. Proved to me with videos that they have the same speed as me. I have even seen Damon demo the processors with the same menu speed I have.. SLOW! This is simply expectation! I expect the redraw to be fast and almost instant when they are simple text based and just two colors. Not 1.5-2 seconds between each screen update. Manufacturers can be smart about it also. OPPO for example added a small delay when you moved around in the menus. Probably hiding some of the delay they had and also made everything smoother. You can enter the setup and go into preferences or advanced which are full menus. Then move up and down. Tell me you have instant redraw there and I’m happy to be proved wrong. The redraw should behave like interlace and you’ll see each line of text being drawn one by one. If not please do a video and post it. Honest question, it’s obvious you have never been happy with your RMC-1, so why have you not gone in a different direction with another processor manufacturer? I know what I have done in the past when unhappy with any product. To me life is too short to be unhappy for extended amounts of time, so I end up taking a path that will make me happy. I’ve done this several times as a home theater enthusiasts and I’m all the better for it. Haha.. Is it obvious?! So I can’t complain about features that doesn’t work good without being happy and be recommended to sell it? I have been pretty happy with my RMC-1.. But I’m not happy how Emotiva have handled the progress of these units. Pretty much nothing has happend in almost 5 years. Except them adding Dirac. My unit have almost always worked fine for everything that it can do. I have actually had more issues with 3.1 and 3.1.2 beta than ever before. Snaps from speakers, robotic sound from streaming apps and loosing HDMI sync. But mostly OK. Have had robotic sound 3-4 times total before. Now I have that about the same every week. |
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Mar 18, 2023 12:42:39 GMT -5
Honest question, it’s obvious you have never been happy with your RMC-1, so why have you not gone in a different direction with another processor manufacturer? I know what I have done in the past when unhappy with any product. To me life is too short to be unhappy for extended amounts of time, so I end up taking a path that will make me happy. I’ve done this several times as a home theater enthusiasts and I’m all the better for it. Haha.. Is it obvious?! So I can’t complain about features that doesn’t work good without being happy and be recommended to sell it? I have been pretty happy with my RMC-1.. But I’m not happy how Emotiva have handled the progress of these units. Pretty much nothing has happend in almost 5 years. Except them adding Dirac. My unit have almost always worked fine for everything that it can do. I have actually had more issues with 3.1 and 3.1.2 beta than ever before. Snaps from speakers, robotic sound from streaming apps and loosing HDMI sync. But mostly OK. Have had robotic sound 3-4 times total before. Now I have that about the same every week. Complain all you want, nobody is stopping you as this is quite obvious with your posts. If your “unit almost always worked fine for everything that it can do”, pre v3.1, then why not revert back to those firmwares pre v3.1 ? |
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 18, 2023 12:44:00 GMT -5
You can stop this already.. I have had this talk before with others that said the same. Proved to me with videos that they have the same speed as me. I have even seen Damon demo the processors with the same menu speed I have.. SLOW! This is simply expectation! I expect the redraw to be fast and almost instant when they are simple text based and just two colors. Not 1.5-2 seconds between each screen update. Manufacturers can be smart about it also. OPPO for example added a small delay when you moved around in the menus. Probably hiding some of the delay they had and also made everything smoother. You can enter the setup and go into preferences or advanced which are full menus. Then move up and down. Tell me you have instant redraw there and I’m happy to be proved wrong. The redraw should behave like interlace and you’ll see each line of text being drawn one by one. If not please do a video and post it. Honest question, it’s obvious you have never been happy with your RMC-1, so why have you not gone in a different direction with another processor manufacturer? I know what I have done in the past when unhappy with any product. To me life is too short to be unhappy for extended amounts of time, so I end up taking a path that will make me happy. I’ve done this several times as a home theater enthusiasts and I’m all the better for it. I'm one that would choose not to afford a multi thousand dollar processor every few years but would hope that the manufacturer could provide what was promised originally. |
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,865
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Post by LCSeminole on Mar 18, 2023 12:53:44 GMT -5
Honest question, it’s obvious you have never been happy with your RMC-1, so why have you not gone in a different direction with another processor manufacturer? I know what I have done in the past when unhappy with any product. To me life is too short to be unhappy for extended amounts of time, so I end up taking a path that will make me happy. I’ve done this several times as a home theater enthusiasts and I’m all the better for it. I'm one that would choose not to afford a multi thousand dollar processor every few years but would hope that the manufacturer could provide what was promised originally. Exactly the reasoning behind my original post. Why not buy a processor that you won’t have to afford every few years and be happy with said purchase. I did and I’m quite happy with it. Not every purchase that you make in life will be the right choice for you(I’ve learned this countless times over) so learn from your past and move in a direction that will hopefully get you where you want to be. |
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Post by hsamwel on Mar 18, 2023 13:06:56 GMT -5
You can stop this already.. I have had this talk before with others that said the same. Proved to me with videos that they have the same speed as me. I have even seen Damon demo the processors with the same menu speed I have.. SLOW! This is simply expectation! I expect the redraw to be fast and almost instant when they are simple text based and just two colors. Not 1.5-2 seconds between each screen update. Manufacturers can be smart about it also. OPPO for example added a small delay when you moved around in the menus. Probably hiding some of the delay they had and also made everything smoother. You can enter the setup and go into preferences or advanced which are full menus. Then move up and down. Tell me you have instant redraw there and I’m happy to be proved wrong. The redraw should behave like interlace and you’ll see each line of text being drawn one by one. If not please do a video and post it. Wow, just trying to help. Please accept my apology and I promise not to try again. Didn’t mean it to come out as harsh. PLEASE accept MY apology! Just that I have had this discussion before. Ended up watching a video of a member moving around the menus with the same lag as me, at the same time saying he didn’t have any lag.. I have seen many come out and just ”protect” Emotiva just for the sake of it. IMO if you can’t tell the truth about a product then there sure is a REAL problem. The menu speed have been pretty much the same since they found the bandwidth issue, I believe it was 1.10 or something. Still slow.. It’s an issue I really hope they fix in gen4. The whole GUI needs a big overhaul with both speed, color and graphics. OSD help that pretty much open up pages from the manual for new users… Web settings will sure be nice. I hope these will look the part with nice design that doesn’t look like my 10 year old kid just put it together. No processor is perfect. Emotiva has great hardware, not so much the software. Others are the other way round. I know I want to have great hardware. Because everything can only become better. The other way around is harder. It’s too bad Emotiva didn’t accelerate the software progress more. They could have been the best out there instead of all these issues year after year for many. |
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